Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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sunflower:
On this too... we agree. Schools secretly stream at P1 now. So, no wonder parents panic and send to baby brain stimulus programs.
Yes, the cheese has moved. With the introduction of the IP, I feel more sorry for the late bloomers rather than the poor but bright. Somehow, the bright ones will either be streamed into GEP and provided with all the oppoortunites, or streamed into top classes within the school, where they would largely be given opportunites to stretch themselves further. -
Chenonceau:
Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.
Should not all schools be adequate in their teaching? If the system worked fine... why is this a needed parameter? If even one school is inadequate in teaching, tuition becomes a necessity? What if many schools are inadequate in their teaching? Would this not mean that tuition is a necessity for a larger population?sunflower:
Well, whether tuition is a necessity remains debatable. Quoting from what I've mentioned previously, I think there are a few parameters to consider.
1. Is the school adequate in their teaching?
What if most schools cannot manage to teach to PSLE standards (even though Teachers try), would that not mean a multi-million dollar tuition industry that is alive and well... and booming? -
sunflower:
You are sure it is only a matter of perception? It may be in some cases. But surely not in all?
Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.
When 25 marks in a test paper tests what has not yet been taught... this can be analyzed and marked out. When asked why this is so, the school responded... \"The bright ones naturally know.\"... indicating that they think that NOT having taught something is already adequate teaching. -
tutormum:
I'm not sure, just guessing that your son being one of the 6 refers to the 2nd round of GEP testing? I won't be surprised that most come from certain schools, many from those schools do send their children for tuition/enrichment classes such as TLL, but that does not mean that only the rich who can afford to send their children to the extras get into GEP. There are those not so rich but bright ones who get in as well. The 40 of them bagging gold from NYPS are most likely mainly GEP students.I had a friend whose child from NYPS told me that their students were trained from the word \"go\" i.e. they are grouped into different ability classes and trained for GEP and national competitions. These branded schools are not popular for nothing. When DS3 took his GEP test at a centre, he was only one of the 6 from his school compared to these popular schools which sent them by the bus load. DS3 observed that almost 90% of the students were from the same branded school. When he went to ACS for his maths competition, the same thing happened. I have to send him cos he was the only one who made it to the finals while NYPS which had 40 of them bagging gold had buses and teachers accompanying them.
DS3 consoled himself that he was naturally gifted as he had no training whatsoever while those trained by the branded schools had artificial imputed intelligence so nothing glorifying. :faint:
My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:
I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition. -
sunflower:
It still means he was unfairly denied training that would have brought out his talent further simply because he was in a school that doesn't deliver the sort of training that NYPS gives i.e., schools are different in the quality they provide.
I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition.
Talent, without training, underutilises the nation's talent pool. -
Chenonceau:
It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.
You are sure it is only a matter of perception? It may be in some cases. But surely not in all?sunflower:
Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.
When 25 marks in a test paper tests what has not yet been taught... this can be analyzed and marked out. When asked why this is so, the school responded... \"The bright ones naturally know.\"... indicating that they think that NOT having taught something is already adequate teaching.
Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughter’s neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.
Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughter’s teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.
Both children depended on school and did not have tuition. -
sunflower:
You need not convince me on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I know some far surpass a couple (not all) branded schools in quality of teaching. This still does not resolve the problem of variance in quality between schools.
It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.
Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughter’s neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.
Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughter’s teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.
Both children depended on school and did not have tuition. -
sunflower:
:oops: :oops: Actually, I didn't give my DS3 any support. The only support he got from me was to bring him to the test centres. I didn't even teach or help him in his school work cos he's quite independent. His school only gave 'support' after they discovered his talent i.e. after he qualified for the Maths Olympaid finals and got a silver medal. I hope I don't sound ungrateful to state that the school didn't handpick him for the competition cos every pupil was given a chance to sign up if they wanted to try their luck. It was only after his steller performance, did the school ask him to sign up for other competitions and haphazardly gave him some lessons as a sign of support. Honestly I was flabbergasted cos DS3 would grace the stage every year to receive his NSW certificate as he would either score Distinction or Higher Distinction in Maths which would have given them an indication of his talent. In fact, when he was in lower primary, one of his form teachers told me that DS3 was not clever cos if he was, he would have topped his class. I would never forget the day how she haughtily shown me the report book of the top boy to prove her point.
I'm not sure, just guessing that your son being one of the 6 refers to the 2nd round of GEP testing? I won't be surprised that most come from certain schools, many from those schools do send their children for tuition/enrichment classes such as TLL, but that does not mean that only the rich who can afford to send their children to the extras get into GEP. There are those not so rich but bright ones who get in as well. The 40 of them bagging gold from NYPS are most likely mainly GEP students.tutormum:
I had a friend whose child from NYPS told me that their students were trained from the word \"go\" i.e. they are grouped into different ability classes and trained for GEP and national competitions. These branded schools are not popular for nothing. When DS3 took his GEP test at a centre, he was only one of the 6 from his school compared to these popular schools which sent them by the bus load. DS3 observed that almost 90% of the students were from the same branded school. When he went to ACS for his maths competition, the same thing happened. I have to send him cos he was the only one who made it to the finals while NYPS which had 40 of them bagging gold had buses and teachers accompanying them.
DS3 consoled himself that he was naturally gifted as he had no training whatsoever while those trained by the branded schools had artificial imputed intelligence so nothing glorifying. :faint:
My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:
I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition.
Don't get me wrong. I've shared my DS3 experience to show that there is indeed discrepancies in our system. Of course, DS3 did get his share of good and bad teachers. I'm sure these teachers abound in both 'branded' and 'unbranded' schools. Yet, there is a vast difference in the way the schools are run and our friend, Chenonceau has highlighted them over and over again. My three DS are from the same primary school and their experiences were totally differently. All of them were left very much on their own. I helped DS1 in his maths cos it was his weakest subject. Chinese was DS2 weakest subject and lots of
I didn't push to the extent that they must score A or A*. I was happy that they didn't fail and left everything to the school. At times I do reflect and wonder if I should have done things differently and pushed them to be 'scholars'. DS2 secondary teachers told me that he could have greater achievements if :censored: :censored: Both DS1 and DS2 depended on the school solely for their study material cos they thought that would be enough for them. DS3 read since he was 2+ and by the time he entered primary school, he found that the school materials couldn't satisfy his quest for knowledge. :razz: At times, he lamented that I didn't send him to a branded school which would have spurred him onto 'greater height' which meant he would be able to score 270+ for PSLE instead of 250+ :faint:
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Hi tutormum, thanks for sharing in the post above. I do empathise with you on your son’s experience. It was unfortunate that the school did not recognize his talents earlier. Each school’s selection process might differ, but ultimately, the school did recognize his talents and provided opportunities for him.
On the other hand, if he was in a branded school, there might be many as good as him or even better, so much so that comparatively, he might not seemed good enough, and might have been overlooked, hence not even given the chance to be trained or go for competitions?
I have heard of a boy who was very good in Math but not good enough in a branded school (there were many others much better) and hence, was not selected by the school for Math Olympiad training, although he was very keen to join the training. I think that school select by Math exam results and they have a quota (or cut-off mark), and they do set pretty tough papers. -
Chenonceau:
I'm not trying to convince you on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I gave the examples to show that there's no absolute in everything, and to dispel the notion that:
You need not convince me on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I know some far surpass a couple (not all) branded schools in quality of teaching. This still does not resolve the problem of variance in quality between schools.sunflower:
It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.
Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughter’s neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.
Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughter’s teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.
Both children depended on school and did not have tuition.
1. Tuition is a MUST and a necessity for everyone (Case 1 above)
2. ONLY branded schools identify talents and train them, or give them more opportunities to develop their potential (Case 2).
BTW, the girl in Case 2 represented her primary school in competitions as well.
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