Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Well, whether tuition is a necessity remains debatable. Quoting from what I've mentioned previously, I think there are a few parameters to consider.

1. Is the school adequate in their teaching?

Should not all schools be adequate in their teaching? If the system worked fine... why is this a needed parameter? If even one school is inadequate in teaching, tuition becomes a necessity? What if many schools are inadequate in their teaching? Would this not mean that tuition is a necessity for a larger population?

What if most schools cannot manage to teach to PSLE standards (even though Teachers try), would that not mean a multi-million dollar tuition industry that is alive and well... and booming?

[sunflower]

oxyleo:

sunflower:

Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.


There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also
one of the world's highest (within top 10).

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

Hi Sunflower,
Like you, I too used to think most parents were just too hung up on the whole education process. I too have yet to personally experience the bad effects of the system, as my son is only in P2 this year, and thus far has been blessed with good teachers and an empathizing school environment. But I have kept an open mind throughout, observed and asked around. Many of my friends with older children, have alluded that there is more than meets the eye, especially once you fall into the less than Best class. Bear in mind these friends are also not the typical \"sign-up for Genius enrichment class at 3 years old, or sign up for tuition for every subject possible 2 years ahead of cohort\" kind of people. They are the more relaxed sort of parent, myself included, believing in taking things easy, seeing how the child fits into the greater scheme of things sorta people. But they are now bearing the brunt of the harsh reality. In a way, it's like the very popular book years back, called \"Who Moved my Cheese\". Some time along the way, the cheese got moved, and the least KS parents didn't even know it.

I found this thread on KS Parents:
ST%20My%20Points%20-%206%20A1s%204A2s%20can%27t%20get%20into%20Hwa%20Chong%0AModerators%3A%20ChiefKiasu,%20ClassMonitor

This probably explains how the dynamics of our education system has changed over the years. Competition intensified further after the IP got introduced circa 2004. Dream JCs like Hwa Chong and Raffles are no longer meant for late bloomers.

Yes, the cheese has moved. With the introduction of the IP, I feel more sorry for the late bloomers rather than the poor but bright. Somehow, the bright ones will either be streamed into GEP and provided with all the opportunites, or streamed into top classes within the school, where they would largely be given opportunites to stretch themselves further.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Yes, the cheese has moved. With the introduction of the IP, I feel more sorry for the late bloomers rather than the poor but bright. Somehow, the bright ones will either be streamed into GEP and provided with all the oppoortunites, or streamed into top classes within the school, where they would largely be given opportunites to stretch themselves further.

On this too... we agree. Schools secretly stream at P1 now. So, no wonder parents panic and send to baby brain stimulus programs.

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

Well, whether tuition is a necessity remains debatable. Quoting from what I've mentioned previously, I think there are a few parameters to consider.

1. Is the school adequate in their teaching?

Should not all schools be adequate in their teaching? If the system worked fine... why is this a needed parameter? If even one school is inadequate in teaching, tuition becomes a necessity? What if many schools are inadequate in their teaching? Would this not mean that tuition is a necessity for a larger population?

What if most schools cannot manage to teach to PSLE standards (even though Teachers try), would that not mean a multi-million dollar tuition industry that is alive and well... and booming?

Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.

You are sure it is only a matter of perception? It may be in some cases. But surely not in all?

When 25 marks in a test paper tests what has not yet been taught... this can be analyzed and marked out. When asked why this is so, the school responded... \"The bright ones naturally know.\"... indicating that they think that NOT having taught something is already adequate teaching.

[sunflower]

tutormum:

I had a friend whose child from NYPS told me that their students were trained from the word \"go\" i.e. they are grouped into different ability classes and trained for GEP and national competitions. These branded schools are not popular for nothing. When DS3 took his GEP test at a centre, he was only one of the 6 from his school compared to these popular schools which sent them by the bus load. DS3 observed that almost 90% of the students were from the same branded school. When he went to ACS for his maths competition, the same thing happened. I have to send him cos he was the only one who made it to the finals while NYPS which had 40 of them bagging gold had buses and teachers accompanying them. DS3 consoled himself that he was naturally gifted as he had no training whatsoever while those trained by the branded schools had artificial imputed intelligence so nothing glorifying. :faint:

My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:

I'm not sure, just guessing that your son being one of the 6 refers to the 2nd round of GEP testing? I won't be surprised that most come from certain schools, many from those schools do send their children for tuition/enrichment classes such as TLL, but that does not mean that only the rich who can afford to send their children to the extras get into GEP. There are those not so rich but bright ones who get in as well. The 40 of them bagging gold from NYPS are most likely mainly GEP students.

I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition.

It still means he was unfairly denied training that would have brought out his talent further simply because he was in a school that doesn't deliver the sort of training that NYPS gives i.e., schools are different in the quality they provide.

Talent, without training, underutilises the nation's talent pool.

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should have rephrased it as is the school perceived to be adequate in their teaching by parents.

You are sure it is only a matter of perception? It may be in some cases. But surely not in all?

When 25 marks in a test paper tests what has not yet been taught... this can be analyzed and marked out. When asked why this is so, the school responded... \"The bright ones naturally know.\"... indicating that they think that NOT having taught something is already adequate teaching.

It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.

Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughter’s neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.

Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughter’s teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.

Both children depended on school and did not have tuition.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.

Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughter’s neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.

Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughter’s teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.

Both children depended on school and did not have tuition.

You need not convince me on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I know some far surpass a couple (not all) branded schools in quality of teaching. This still does not resolve the problem of variance in quality between schools.

[tutormum]

sunflower:

tutormum:

I had a friend whose child from NYPS told me that their students were trained from the word \"go\" i.e. they are grouped into different ability classes and trained for GEP and national competitions. These branded schools are not popular for nothing. When DS3 took his GEP test at a centre, he was only one of the 6 from his school compared to these popular schools which sent them by the bus load. DS3 observed that almost 90% of the students were from the same branded school. When he went to ACS for his maths competition, the same thing happened. I have to send him cos he was the only one who made it to the finals while NYPS which had 40 of them bagging gold had buses and teachers accompanying them. DS3 consoled himself that he was naturally gifted as he had no training whatsoever while those trained by the branded schools had artificial imputed intelligence so nothing glorifying. :faint:

My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:

I'm not sure, just guessing that your son being one of the 6 refers to the 2nd round of GEP testing? I won't be surprised that most come from certain schools, many from those schools do send their children for tuition/enrichment classes such as TLL, but that does not mean that only the rich who can afford to send their children to the extras get into GEP. There are those not so rich but bright ones who get in as well. The 40 of them bagging gold from NYPS are most likely mainly GEP students.

I applaud you, tutormum, for your support to your son who's naturally gifted in Math. This is what I mean by letting your child take the lead. You recognised his talent in this area and gave him appropriate and full support. In addition, the school did recognise his talent and gave him the exposure by registering him for the competition.

:oops: :oops: Actually, I didn't give my DS3 any support. The only support he got from me was to bring him to the test centres. I didn't even teach or help him in his school work cos he's quite independent. His school only gave 'support' after they discovered his talent i.e. after he qualified for the Maths Olympaid finals and got a silver medal. I hope I don't sound ungrateful to state that the school didn't handpick him for the competition cos every pupil was given a chance to sign up if they wanted to try their luck. It was only after his steller performance, did the school ask him to sign up for other competitions and haphazardly gave him some lessons as a sign of support. Honestly I was flabbergasted cos DS3 would grace the stage every year to receive his NSW certificate as he would either score Distinction or Higher Distinction in Maths which would have given them an indication of his talent. In fact, when he was in lower primary, one of his form teachers told me that DS3 was not clever cos if he was, he would have topped his class. I would never forget the day how she haughtily shown me the report book of the top boy to prove her point.
Don't get me wrong. I've shared my DS3 experience to show that there is indeed discrepancies in our system. Of course, DS3 did get his share of good and bad teachers. I'm sure these teachers abound in both 'branded' and 'unbranded' schools. Yet, there is a vast difference in the way the schools are run and our friend, Chenonceau has highlighted them over and over again. My three DS are from the same primary school and their experiences were totally differently. All of them were left very much on their own. I helped DS1 in his maths cos it was his weakest subject. Chinese was DS2 weakest subject and lots of I didn't push to the extent that they must score A or A*. I was happy that they didn't fail and left everything to the school. At times I do reflect and wonder if I should have done things differently and pushed them to be 'scholars'. DS2 secondary teachers told me that he could have greater achievements if :censored: :censored: Both DS1 and DS2 depended on the school solely for their study material cos they thought that would be enough for them. DS3 read since he was 2+ and by the time he entered primary school, he found that the school materials couldn't satisfy his quest for knowledge. :razz: At times, he lamented that I didn't send him to a branded school which would have spurred him onto 'greater height' which meant he would be able to score 270+ for PSLE instead of 250+ :faint: