Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition

[Lilac66]

limlim:

puff:

[quote=\"limlim\"]
IF being a teacher is so TOUGH like some of the pple here say.. how can they ever afford the extra energy to moonlight? doesn't makes sense to me..

And I also feel that, assuming there is reliable way to check, teacher with least number of students who does not attend enrichment classes should be rewarded somehow. % of students having tuition should be a KPI. High % implies failure. Teachers should discourage students from having enrichment classes.

[/quote]

Agree whole-heartedly with this pt. I always wonder how those elite schools will perform if the school bans tuition .Then we'll be able to tell if these schools have exceptional teachers with exceptional methodology or do these schools just have an exceptionally high percentage of students attending tuition and enrichment.
Will this ever become a reality in our lifetime?

[Lilac66]

duplicate

[J and J]

verykiasu2010:

cherryc:

I was told some teachers from good schools like nanyang pri go home earlier and happily. So maybe the school environment does breed good nurturing teachers and better students. And maybe the teachers have more time to prepare materials, all maybe after all, the kids are just rich enough to attend the elitist tuitions or have well-educated parents to teach them.

reminders : not all kids from NYPS are from wealthy background. many many of them are from humble background

I dare say NYPS has very good system and processes in place, there are master teachers, experienced and capable subject head, level head / driver, etc and I personally know some of the teachers were invited to share best practices at conferences.

They also have the follow through approach from pri 5 to 6, and fellow teachers do corroborate and share info

However, even if this were to be replicated in other schools, the devil is in the details. And how many principals will follow exactly the same approach ? same system ? same motivation ? ability to motivate and implement ?

Agreed.

[Lilac66]

verykiasu2010:

cherryc:

I was told some teachers from good schools like nanyang pri go home earlier and happily. So maybe the school environment does breed good nurturing teachers and better students. And maybe the teachers have more time to prepare materials, all maybe after all, the kids are just rich enough to attend the elitist tuitions or have well-educated parents to teach them.

reminders : not all kids from NYPS are from wealthy background. many many of them are from humble background

I dare say NYPS has very good system and processes in place, there are master teachers, experienced and capable subject head, level head / driver, etc and I personally know some of the teachers were invited to share best practices at conferences.

They also have the follow through approach from pri 5 to 6, and fellow teachers do corroborate and share info

However, even if this were to be replicated in other schools, the devil is in the details. And how many principals will follow exactly the same approach ? same system ? same motivation ? ability to motivate and implement ?

If this is really the case, we really cannot fault parents who want to get into such schools by hook or by crook.
Can we then conclude that well-known schools ARE indeed equipped with better teachers and resources?

[Kissgurami]

Chenonceau:

Thanks for your nicely balanced post...

I think though... that ruling with an iron hand is not the only way to get product/service consistency... just like motivation can go way beyond bribes or threats (or pay and promotion). There are other strategies. But as long as people perceive that consistency = iron hand then they will not search for these other strategies... and nothing will improve.

There isn't an iron hand per se now which is leading to the inconsistency amongst the schools, no? The current strategies seems to be for the principals to draft their plans and proposals on what the school can achieve without the \"iron hand\" being involved. Is it helping? No.

For things to happen, something has to give. This is my take and could be wrong -> Principals set the KPIs to ensure the survival of the school if the school is not \"desirable\" and no one wants to enrol, wouldn't that lead to cuts and less facilities or eventually closure.

Take away the KPIs, how would one know if the school is performing or just cruising along? Then we have clans and church affiliated schools where it is not fully funded by the MOE. What happens there?

Teachers are overwhelmed with various forms of additional activities. Externally, there will be admin or communication team to organize such events , create more social activities as our society changes. Which I guess why the schools do rely quite a fair bit of Parent Support groups to aid in that area. Am clueless how the funds are segmented for schools but I think funds aren’t allocated to recruit additional staff for such things.

I love to see a lower ratio of students to 1 teacher but then again, Cut down no. of students in classroom size = more classrooms needed = more vertical/land space required = more teachers = $$$$$$ . Funds and space planning needs to be done.

Based on fees for estimated of 42k students (all Singaporeans) = $462,000 a month , divided amongst 185 schools? Each school would be an estimate of $2500 per school. Not even sure if this covers the electricity and water bill in the school. But the point across is how they would have to manage the cost involved to make it happen and it has to come from “somewhere” eventually.

:offtopic:
Side & off topic -> I do know the hoo ha about how much our tax we are paying but really, working mums themselves would know the actual tax we are paying. Am Referring to WMCR. Out of curiosity , googled how much SPR & foreigners and this is what I found -> http://www.singaporeedu.gov.sg/htm/mis/faq01.htm

preparing for :torchme:

[Chenonceau]

Kissgurami:

Chenonceau:

Thanks for your nicely balanced post...

I think though... that ruling with an iron hand is not the only way to get product/service consistency... just like motivation can go way beyond bribes or threats (or pay and promotion). There are other strategies. But as long as people perceive that consistency = iron hand then they will not search for these other strategies... and nothing will improve.

There isn't an iron hand per se now which is leading to the inconsistency amongst the schools, no? The current strategies seems to be for the principals to draft their plans and proposals on what the school can achieve without the \"iron hand\" being involved. Is it helping? No.

For things to happen, something has to give. This is my take and could be wrong -> Principals set the KPIs to ensure the survival of the school if the school is not \"desirable\" and no one wants to enrol, wouldn't that lead to cuts and less facilities or eventually closure.

Take away the KPIs, how would one know if the school is performing or just cruising along? Then we have clans and church affiliated schools where it is not fully funded by the MOE. What happens there?

Teachers are overwhelmed with various forms of additional activities. Externally, there will be admin or communication team to organize such events , create more social activities as our society changes. Which I guess why the schools do rely quite a fair bit of Parent Support groups to aid in that area. Am clueless how the funds are segmented for schools but I think funds aren’t allocated to recruit additional staff for such things.

I love to see a lower ratio of students to 1 teacher but then again, Cut down no. of students in classroom size = more classrooms needed = more vertical/land space required = more teachers = $$$$$$ . Funds and space planning needs to be done.

Based on fees for estimated of 42k students (all Singaporeans) = $462,000 a month , divided amongst 185 schools? Each school would be an estimate of $2500 per school. Not even sure if this covers the electricity and water bill in the school. But the point across is how they would have to manage the cost involved to make it happen and it has to come from “somewhere” eventually.

:offtopic:
Side & off topic -> I do know the hoo ha about how much our tax we are paying but really, working mums themselves would know the actual tax we are paying. Am Referring to WMCR. Out of curiosity , googled how much SPR & foreigners and this is what I found -> http://www.singaporeedu.gov.sg/htm/mis/faq01.htm

preparing for :torchme:

I am not sure I get your point leh... :scratchhead: All I said was that there are other strategies to ensure consistency. So, I am not following your analysis of costs. You think that these strategies will be costly is it? Some of these strategies can actually REDUCE costs.

[verykiasu2010]

Lilac66:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"cherryc\"]I was told some teachers from good schools like nanyang pri go home earlier and happily. So maybe the school environment does breed good nurturing teachers and better students. And maybe the teachers have more time to prepare materials, all maybe after all, the kids are just rich enough to attend the elitist tuitions or have well-educated parents to teach them.

reminders : not all kids from NYPS are from wealthy background. many many of them are from humble background

I dare say NYPS has very good system and processes in place, there are master teachers, experienced and capable subject head, level head / driver, etc and I personally know some of the teachers were invited to share best practices at conferences.

They also have the follow through approach from pri 5 to 6, and fellow teachers do corroborate and share info

However, even if this were to be replicated in other schools, the devil is in the details. And how many principals will follow exactly the same approach ? same system ? same motivation ? ability to motivate and implement ?

If this is really the case, we really cannot fault parents who want to get into such schools by hook or by crook.
Can we then conclude that well-known schools ARE indeed equipped with better teachers and resources? [/quote]1st statement : 100% true
2nd statement : not 100%, some of the good teachers also kena transferred to other schools, but the system and process already in place will reduce the shortcomings arising from inexperienced teachers, and subject head / level driver play an important role

[SAHM_TAN]

Here's a link to the letter from MOE replying a letter published in ST Forum. It's dated 2004 but the policy should still be the same.


http://www.moe.gov.sg/media/forum/2004/11102004.htm

limlim,

You are very against this particular policy, may I know what's your next course of action?

[Chenonceau]

As many realistic people have pointed out, constraints are real. In anything we attempt to do, constraints are real. I’ll bet that people who watched the Wright brothers experiment with flying, thought that the constraints against flying were real too. When Grandma (a Chinese Teacher of 40 years saw that I was giving Little Boy Chinese Compos from a compendium with 50% of words he didn’t know… she also mentioned many constraints). 18 months later… Little Boy can read new compos from the same compendium just like that.


Were there constraints? Yes. Did I sit down and give up because there were constraints? No. He is my son, I love him. I pit all my intelligence against a constraint and I moved it.

The assumption is not that there are no constraints but that we should try and examine the constraints and think outside the box that constrains us. It is not at all easy to think out of the box that represents our reality so yes… I can understand that many people can only see constraints.

I don’t really care anymore. At least I am trying to lor… Let’s just accept that it is impossible to improve MOE because there are constraints and reasons outside of MOE control. Parents will find a way to help their kids somehow. They’ll get more and more kiasu. Meanwhile, I can make money teaching parents how to teach lower primary kids (without stressing them) but still full preparation for PSLE requirements.

If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.

The man who never can, is the man who thinks he can’t. Fine… let us accept that we can’t. George Bernard Danzig arrived late at a lecture. He copied down problems on the board he thought was homework. He didn’t know that his Prof, Jerzy Neyman had written up problems that the field considered unsolvable thus far…

Student George Bernard Danzig didn’t know how difficult those problems were. So, he went home and promptly solved TWO. When you all you see is constraints, then lay down and give up… then admit defeat and look after your own interests only… and other parents who worry are kiasu (or bad parents because they smother their kids). You can’t change the world mah…

But Steve Jobs did. Were there constraints when he wanted to sell songs in iTunes for 99c? Yes. Plenty.

[cherryc]

Chanced upon this post which was written 2 yrs ago but still v relevant. The problem has existed for so long . Strange, keep seeing the word \"wayang\" being used.


\"\"Ten to twenty years ago, when teachers were teaching formally, I mean really teaching to pupils in class, giving them lots of homework, then tuition was not necessary. Not many tuition centres those days, esp. the elite tuition centres.

These days, the schools (may be under MOE's direction) adopt \"creative teachings\". Students do a lot of 'wayang' in schools, eg, presentation, shifting of furnitures to form groups for discussion like they are university students, YOG support - no school, XYZ festival - no school, PSLE Oral-no school, anything happen-no school, e-learning-no school. Teach less + Learn more. All kinds of nonsense cause the lessons in schools to be very diluted. i.e. not the solid lessons we got 10-20 yrs ago. So, where/how to catch up? Tuition. Think MOE/teachers expect all pupils to go tuition.

Partly the introduction of GEP(Gifted Ed Prog) is to be blamed for the insecurity in parents. In the prog, they taught secondary sch level math to pri sch kids. Since every parent thinks their children are gifted, they do not want to lose out. So, they are willing to fork out tuition fee as high as $150 per session. This type of elite tuition is for the rich.

I did a simple survey in my kid's school. Almost every kid has tuition. No joke. My kid is going to lose out because we cannot afford tuition. The lessons delivered in class are shabby and homework given minimum, how to expect kids to excel without tuition?

I urge MOE/teachers to revert back to old style teachings, cut off all the wayang in school. Give them lots of homework to wear them out, thus too tired for further tuition, then everything will be equal. Presentation can reserved for Pre-U/Poly or University lah... Want pri sch kids to sell wat to investors? Too fast too furious. They better master their \"ratios\", trigonometry first... Teach more, learn more in school.\"\"