City Harvest's founder Kong Hee & 4 others arrested/charged
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empressplace:
I think the fundamental difference between Christianity and other religions is that for other religions, we have to work at it in order to attain salvation. For Christianity, all the work had been done for us, by God sacrificing His one and only son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed his blood for us. The essence of it is Love and Forgiveness. That’s why it’s called a GIFT.
My point is simple. Christian and Buddhist teachings at their core are different. As I said, moral teachings seem about the same but at the core, there are fundamental differences between the Buddhist and Christian beliefs in terms of reincarnation, life and suffering, personal effort versus grace etc.
Let's acknowledge the differences and not gloss over them. Anyway, no need to argue over this. A simple internet search would give some pointers. -
empressplace:
Ok, am understanding you a little better here, and am appreciating that you try to clarify your stand. I also try to be as objective as I can be in case I sound offensive (concern2:
The controversy lies in your use of words. If you may allow me to point out specifically, the negative conations in the first sentence: the words 'may', and 'still not', verses the more certainty in tone and positive conation of the word 'heaven' in the second.
Sigh....so what you are saying is that I am more positive about Christianity? Actually I am not Christian!
The reason that I have to use \"may\" and \"still not\" is that a person may be trapped in endless cycles of rebirths under Buddhism and it is obviously not easy to reach Nirvana. Perhaps I may be too precise as I have studied Buddhist studies in school. OK this is getting too technical. Back to KH and friends....
), which I isn't my intention. I guess putting the two statements one after another misleads the reader. Anyway, let's move on! :snuggles:
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phankao:
The authentic Christian life is not about how strict you are but how STRAIGHT you are - how carefully you adhere to and practice what God says in the Bible.
I used to prefer the KJV, but it was a personal preference bc I just loved the way it was phrased. But it really doesn't matter. Any version is fine.phtthp:
heard some churches very strict & particular about choice of bible used.
they use one type of bible only - ie. King James version (KJV), not any other. eg: NIV (New International version). To them, they regard KJV to be the original authentic bible. They trust only KJV, not NIV, other translated bible.
The Pharisees were definitely very strict but they fell very short of the standard which God required. Their approach to godly living is a whole series of this-cannot-do and that-cannot-do.
Multiplying prohibitions does not equate to more holiness but hollowness. The very vibrancy and essence of life gets cored out. You are left with so little to live on. And live for.
Because of their widespread influence, the Jews viewed Jesus with disdain, not befitting their role-model of how a godly rabbi should behave: The Son of Man (Jesus) came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors (cheats) and sinners.’ (Luke 7:34)
I was brought up to use the KJV. I must admit the archaic language tripped me up more than once.
Later, after attending a talk by Dr. Laird Harris, a visiting a seminary professor, who was on the translation team of the NIV, I opted to use this version. Which was just as well because how can I obey God's commands if I do not even understand or misunderstand what the Bible says?
I've distanced myself from those who insist on the KJV only as I find them a very cantankerous lot. The most accurate version is the one in the original languages: Greek and Hebrew. So if these folks are really that hung up on accuracy, they should use a Greek and Hebrew Bible. And not resort to a halfway measure like a translation.
The best version of the Bible is the one translated into godly living. That's one that's hard to beat.
And that's one great version that's definitely god-honoring.
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. (James 1:22-25) -
After reading some of the comments here regarding sacredmusicals' question whether non-Christians go to hell, I decided to write this clarify this matter as balanced as possible. I will also analyse and quote Kong Hee's actions in this write up as one of the questions being asked in this saga 'Will Kong Hee go to hell for his actions?' and to keep this reply on topic.
The question of non-Christians' afterlife is one that is very sensitive in this multi-religion country. Now, I will need to state some disclaimers first before proceeding.
1) My views do not represent the Christian community. This is my personal observation from my understanding of Bible.
2) I am not professionally trained in theology; I am just your typical church-goer.
3) Don't take my words as the authority on this matter, rather use them as a starting point for further debates and discussions.
To discuss the question 'Will all non-Christians go to hell', we have to look also at the other side of the coin 'will all Christians go to heaven?'. These 2 questions are closely linked to each other and their answers in my opinion are not so straightforward. One needs to read the entire bible first and put all the supporting verses in context with one another before forming an opinion on these matters. Not telling the entire story would be disservice to God's love and grace towards humanity. I will address the latter question first as that is more relevant to this thread.
'Will all Christians go to heaven?\"
This is an area I feel even a lot of churches are being misguided besides the so called 'Prosperity Teaching'. There is an alarming increase in churches
who dilute God's teaching in this matter.
Let me explain.
John 3:36 NIV \"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.\"
This verse is the de facto standard verse quoted by many Christians to make a point that all Christians will go to the heaven. But is this the entire story? How about those Christians who still commit heinous crimes and sins? Does it mean just because they are Christians they will be absolved of their sins when they die? The verse below shed some light:
1 Peters 4:17 MSG \"It's judgment time for God's own family. We're first in line. If it starts with us, think what it's going to be like for those who refuse God's Message!\"
This verse clearly states in black and white that both Christians and non-Christians will be judged. If being Christian means instant ticket to heaven, why did God even need to judge us first? And God will not immediately condemn non-Christians to hell; He is a fair God and he will still judge non-Christians. But it was hinted that the non-Christians may have a harder time during the judgement process.
So what may cause God's people/Christians to not enter heaven?
Romans 2:6-11 NLT \"6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. 9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.\"
These verses and those that follow after these also talk about how God judges non-Christians, but more on that later. The book of Romans was specifically addressed to the church in Rome, one of the earliest Christian church that has Jews as its majority worshippers. As we can see Paul made it very clear that Jews/Christians would not escape God's judgment. And that wickedness and selfish living would be punished with 'anger and wrath'. God does value our good deeds and that He would reward us with the eternal life.
At this point, some of you Christians will wonder, wait a minute, I thought Christians are saved by faith, not by works/deeds?
Ephesians 2:8-9 \"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.\"
Both Romans and Ephesians were both written by Paul, so why the apparent contradiction? We have to understand the contexts of the two letters. The letters dealt with two separate problems that the two churches in Rome and Ephesus were having. The congregations in Rome had issues of proper Christian living while the church in Ephesus had an erroneous believe that they needed to do go good works to earn 'brownie points' to earn their salvations. But actually they do not contradict one another. To sum it up, Both faith and works need to go hand in hand for a Christian to be saved. Good works and deeds are natural reflection of our faith in God. Without good works, Christians would not have demonstrated their faith towards God. Piousness is NOT an indication of faith towards God.
So yes, taking an example of Kong Hee. Let's assume for this discussion that all the charges brought to him are all true and he was guilty. Without conscious effort to confess his sins and repent, even if he still goes to church and prays to God like most other Christians, he would still be judged to eternal damnation because of his lack of faith that is reflected by his wicked living.
Some of you will ask, how about that thief who asked for forgiveness on the cross from Jesus? What if I accept God just moments before I die and I have no chance to make amends?
To discuss this would prolong this write up unnecessarily, but suffice to say this will depend on whether your are truly repentant and only God can be the judge.
So the big question:
\"Will all non-Christians go to hell?\"
As we have seen above. specifically from 1 Peters 4:17 and Romans 2:6-11, God will judge both Christians and non Christians (Gentiles). And both Christians and non Christians will be given punishments and rewards without any prejudice. The reason why non Christians may have harder time in judgment process is because they may not have the same resources that Christians have, namely the manual of living that is the Bible and prayers, so they may not be aware of proper living standards set by God.
And let's read the continuation of Romans 2:
Romans 2:12-16 NLT \"12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.\"
These verses are strongest confirmation that it is in fact possible for non-Christians to have the same faith that Christians have. That means a non-Christian who has demonstrated characteristics of Christian living is deemed to have the same faith in God as the Christians, and by extension 'believes in the Son'.
So yes, if you ask me, a Buddhist monk who help others selflessly and truly repents of his past sin would enter the same heaven that we Christians enter, provided that he had not actively rejected God in his life (that is the sin of blasphemy, another subject for another discussion).
So in summary,
\"Will all Christians go to heaven?\" No.
\"will all non-Christians go to hell?\" No.
What we Christians can learn from this is that our God loves us Christians and non Christians the same, and I hope we all can follow His example when dealing with our non-Christian brethrens. -
Daddy
Actually money is the root of all SORTS of evil.
Money is the root of all Evil....
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sunflower:
But then is just beautiful packaging of words....\"all the work\" have been done? but you still need to understand the bible and obey his commands in order to unite with him after death...
I think the fundamental difference between Christianity and other religions is that for other religions, you have to work at it to attain salvation. For Christianity, all the work had been done for us, by God sacrificing His one and only son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed his blood for us. The essence of it is Love and Forgiveness. That’s why it’s called a GIFT.
Similar beautiful packaging of words exist in some of schools of Buddhism too...\"The Enlightened State has never left any of us...\". Is even better...no work need to be done too... -
No Kidding:
Don't blame money. It is us human, and our greed that is at fault.
Actually money is the root of all SORTS of evil.Daddy
Money is the root of all Evil....
:imanangel: -
Dreamaurora:
What we Christians can learn from this is that our God loves us Christians and non Christians the same, and I hope we all can follow His example when dealing with our non-Christian brethrens.
Summation of all that I have read. Amen! :goodpost: -
WeiHan:
Pardon my ignorance....
God is portrayed as vicious and wrathful in the old testament but he is full of love in new testament.patagonia:
Hmm.. 'head of household' is not head of church / temple / mosque.. It's the Top Guy up there.
Why is GOD portrayed diffferently in the old and new? Is either one of them less than accurate?
In many religions where the word of the Omnipotent(s) are written by man, interpreted by man, translated by man, rewritten, reinterpreted and retranslated by man over thousands of years across different versions ... I see single religions broken up into multiple demoninations, some with vastly different core beliefs and practises.
Makes me wonder if these written words are more of a guideline than hard rules and regulations to be adhered to word for word. -
chenwj:
Wah, good one, your wifey, chenwj! :rotflmao:DesertWind:
This thing about tithing through credit card. The bible said to give one-tithe from the first of all your produce. Seems a bit contradictory to be tithing through credit card ie. giving from what you don't have yet..... :?
wifey say can earn credit card points and rebates.
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