Bi-lingualism at school a mistake ?

[kiasimom]

Hi tamarind,


Are the books more "approachable" and appropriate for the children?
Are they filled with a lot of words and might frighten the children off?
Or they are very friendly and the children will enjoy reading it?

Thanks for your comments

[clarabella]

rains:

So far, the reasons behind difficulty in learning Chinese are:

1) lack of immersion (environment factor)
2) not used to the language (which goes back to no. 1)
3) amount of memory work involved ie. strokes, pronunciation
4) lack of relevance
5) lack of the knowledge of teaching/learning Chinese in a structural way

rains, nice list there

Just to share some things that I have learnt recently after I had a conversation with a friend, who's doing graduate work in Applied Linguistics, about the difficulties of learning Chinese:

- Han characters, (such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean) are like the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs - systems that employ mainly non-alphabetic representations, i.e. they are largely logographic.
Logograms, such as Chinese characters, are visual symbols representing words. This is in contrast to systems that use phonemes (speech sounds) that make up words.

- Because Chinese words are not linked directly to their sounds, we do not need to actually understand the pronunciation in order to understand the meaning of the words. Also, it can be (relatively) easier to remember/guess the meaning of the characters because they offer visual clues.

- BUT the separation of the characters and their pronunciations means that there are two fairly distinct aspects that learners of the language need to focus on.
Also, the sheer number of different logograms needed to write the language also leads to a greater challenge in memorizing the reading and writing of new words.

- In contrast, alphabet-based systems, such as modern English, offer a set of standardized written symbols. While limited in scope (think 26 letters!), it is far easier, relatively, for users to recall the sounds of words written in an alphabetic code.

- However, there are only about 3,500 commonly used Chinese characters (simplified). :!:
Hence, once a student knows these common characters, he should be able to read almost all publications in Simplified Chinese with ease.

[Tamarind, if you're reading this, doesn't it sound like the idea behind the Ladybird series? ]

- In addition, once a learner is conversant with the common characters, the learning of new words become much easier because many 词汇 are combinations of familiar characters, and he only needs to learn new meanings since he already knows the separate characters.

- Lastly, the meaning of a 词汇 that is made up of various characters is frequently related to the original meaning of each word. So, when we encounter a brand new phrase, it is possible to guess its meaning. The same cannot be said of an alphabetic system.

[mathsparks]

rains:

mathsparks:

Ermm, rains, I side-tracked a bit, k? Your kid need to brush up on oral/listening skills too. Have you seen this?

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2418&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=2f8d6b3f2522279b21d2e4d8bbecdba7

I went to that site. But so boring leh. Even I don't have the patience to sit down there and listen till it finishes. Thanks for sharing though. Appreciate it. I'll try to like it.

Actually, it's for kids. There is a section on listening compre where at the end of the story, 3 qns are asked and yr kid can try to answer them. The stories are from that same week's da mu zhi, and answers are found there too.

You can gauge yr child's listening skills from there. Even if you dont have the mag, you can sit beside him/her and see if he/she gets it right.

dont say boring leh. it served my son well for 3 years.

[cafelatte]

tamarind:

... kids should start by learning the 部首 and the simple Chinese characters first. This is also how the kids learn in Berries. My younger boy is only average, but he has no problem learning these with minimal practice. Berries do not require kids to do daily homework. ..

However, this is not the structure taken by MOE or once the child is in P1. The Chinese textbooks are thematic based...just like the English textbooks. The 听写单follows the theme. Furthermore, in SA1/SA2, the child will be required to write 句子and later in P2-看图写画。

Does anyone knows :
1) Guide books which list and explain all the 部首 ? eg.
讠- 言字旁，related to words. and list the related 汉字“说、讲、讨、话

2) Where to find the list of 3,500 commonly used Chinese characters ?

[rains]

clarabella:

Just to share some things that I have learnt recently after I had a conversation with a friend, who's doing graduate work in Applied Linguistics, about the difficulties of learning Chinese

Oh dear, clarabella,

The moment I read that your friend is doing Applied Linguistics, I cannot read on already. That's exactly the course I'm eyeing at. Is he or she doing it at Master's level? Is it done in English? Is it an English course? If it is, how come your friend is doing something about Chinese? Is it research or coursework based?

So sorry! I'm really keen on the course, that's why the incessant questioning.

[rains]

Okay, I’ve finished reading your post, clarabella. Very insightful. It’s like how I picked up Chinese at the learning stage. Even now, I recognise Chinese characters as individual pictures, or in your word, more accurately, a symbol, and the way they look is almost phonics to me.


mathsparks,
Oh I see! I’m such an impatient person. I didn’t realise that it shows even in a forum. Thanks for telling me the interactive part. I’ll show it to my kid.

Actually, I don’t quite understand why most of you feel that there’re not many good Chinese books in Singapore. I feel that it’s not the books, but our children’s standard that’s the factor. Any book (apart from those pornographic materials and those with inappropriate content) can be a good book. I pick up new words from just about any book, even a Hong Kong or Taiwanese cookbook, craftbook. But when I look through the books in bookstores like Popular, I’ve difficulty finding a ‘good book’ for my kid becos I want something appropriate for her level. If not for her lack of interest and not-so-fantastic Chinese, I would be able to get books for her more easily eg. I almost finished reading whatever 琼瑶writes by the time I was in sec one, but I doubt my kid will be able to do that at the same age. But of course, I didn’t read Charlotte’s Web at kindy, so she can also say the same thing for my English.

Or do you mean that the books are too easy? The libraries will have enough ‘difficult’ Chinese books I thought.

But thanks for the dangdang site, the impatient me hasn’t looked at it yet.

tamarind,
Actually, I don’t quite understand what you mean by "remembering how to write Chinese characters by strokes is wrong".

When I write a Chinese character, I have a mental picture of how the character looks like, then I will write it stroke by stroke, and I will endeavour to ensure that I’m following the strokes correctly. When people ask me how to write a certain word and there’s no 部首, I will also tell and show them in strokes. Why can’t you remember how to write the characters in strokes?

[rains]

tamarind,


ooo … the dangdang website is so cute! I mean the books! It makes me want to read too! Haha, I love children’s books! But there’s no way to look at the pages of the books first right? How do you know whether it will be too simple or difficult for your kids?

I got another question which I hope won’t frustrate you: how to buy huh? The currency is in NT is it? How come it looks like yen to me? But NT also not correct, how can it be so cheap? I’m so sorry. I’m a techophobic.

Does dangdang deliver right to your doorstep? How long does that take?

[tamarind]

kiasimom:

Are the books more \"approachable\" and appropriate for the children?
Are they filled with a lot of words and might frighten the children off?
Or they are very friendly and the children will enjoy reading it?

It all depends on the child's standard of Chinese.

I have included photos of some of the pages in my blog :
http://tamarindvillage.blogspot.com/2009/12/reading-chinese-books.html

My girl attended Berries since 4 years old, so she has no problem reading the books now at 6 years old. Those who have not attended Chinese enrichment classes will find these books very difficult.

So you need to know the standard of your kids, and find suitable books for them.

clarabella:

[Tamarind, if you're reading this, doesn't it sound like the idea behind the Ladybird series? ]
- In addition, once a learner is conversant with the common characters, the learning of new words become much easier because many 词汇 are combinations of familiar characters, and he only needs to learn new meanings since he already knows the separate characters.

I totally agree with you.

clarabella:

- In contrast, alphabet-based systems, such as modern English, offer a set of standardized written symbols. While limited in scope (think 26 letters!), it is far easier, relatively, for users to recall the sounds of words written in an alphabetic code.

Take note that MOE does not teach phonics in primary schools. There are many kids who do not have any knowledge of phonics when they enter P1. MOE teachers expect kids to memorize the spelling of English words. That was what I did when I was young, I never heard of phonics until my kids were born.

In fact, I know many parents now who complain that English spelling is difficult and stressful. They do not understand that they can use phonics to help with spelling.

[tamarind]

cafelatte:

tamarind:

... kids should start by learning the 部首 and the simple Chinese characters first. This is also how the kids learn in Berries. My younger boy is only average, but he has no problem learning these with minimal practice. Berries do not require kids to do daily homework. ..

However, this is not the structure taken by MOE or once the child is in P1. The Chinese textbooks are thematic based...just like the English textbooks. The 听写单follows the theme. Furthermore, in SA1/SA2, the child will be required to write 句子and later in P2-看图写画。

Does anyone knows :
1) Guide books which list and explain all the 部首 ? eg.
讠- 言字旁，related to words. and list the related 汉字“说、讲、讨、话

2) Where to find the list of 3,500 commonly used Chinese characters ?

That's why many parents know that they cannot depend on MOE to teach Chinese. They are sending their kids to good enrichment classes like Berries to learn Chinese using effective methods.

Good books to learn Chinese are not available in Singapore. Try searching in http://www.dangdang.com. I am trying to get this series of books from China :

幼儿快速识字阅读法
http://product.dangdang.com/product.aspx?product_id=20645179

“四五快读”的汉字与小学课本同步，坚持半年可学完本套书，可以认识近千汉字，4000余词语（含130成语、俗语）。孩子入学后，即可轻松进入学习状态。

[tamarind]

rains:

tamarind,
Actually, I don't quite understand what you mean by \"remembering how to write Chinese characters by strokes is wrong\".

When I write a Chinese character, I have a mental picture of how the character looks like, then I will write it stroke by stroke, and I will endeavour to ensure that I'm following the strokes correctly. When people ask me how to write a certain word and there's no 部首, I will also tell and show them in strokes. Why can't you remember how to write the characters in strokes?

The keyword is \"remember\". I remember Chinese words by their parts, not by the strokes.

For example, this word
游

can be split into

氵 方 子 (and the 2 strokes on top, don't know how to type)

Then it is sort of like remembering the spelling of English words.

This works provided kids are taught the 部首 and the simplest characters from a very young age. Once they have a good foundation, then when they see a word, they can naturally break it up in their mind in order to remember it.

We should also remember words in groups, for example :

弟 第 梯 涕 剃

My boy learned to write the word 弟 at 4 years old. In the future, when he learns the other words, he only has to remember to add the correct 部首 will do. The 部首 gives clues to the meaning of the words. For example, ladder is made of wood : 梯.

In fact, I found memorizing English spelling much worst without the knowledge of phonics, because English words can have so many letters. The most difficult Chinese words probably have 4 or 5 parts only.

Anyway this is not a method that I invented. My Chinese teachers used to teach the students this way.
[quote]ooo ... the dangdang website is so cute! I mean the books! It makes me want to read too! Haha, I love children's books! But there's no way to look at the pages of the books first right? How do you know whether it will be too simple or difficult for your kids?

I got another question which I hope won't frustrate you: how to buy huh? The currency is in NT is it? How come it looks like yen to me? But NT also not correct, how can it be so cheap? I'm so sorry. I'm a techophobic.

Does dangdang deliver right to your doorstep? How long does that take?[/quote]Yes dangdang delivers to Singapore addresses. But we need to have a Citibank credit card to order online. The website is from China, the currency is RMB. It takes about 4 to 6 weeks.

This bookshop http://bras-basah-complex.com.sg/bbc/2_shops/en_level_detail_1.asp?sid=03-005 at Bras Basah carries many books from dangdang. You can browse there. But the prices are so much more expensive than the website.

In order to choose suitable books from dangdang, you can select the correct age group for your kids. Of course remember that in China the standard of Chinese is much higher than our kids.