Bi-lingualism at school a mistake ?
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tamarind:
... kids should start by learning the 部首 and the simple Chinese characters first. This is also how the kids learn in Berries. My younger boy is only average, but he has no problem learning these with minimal practice. Berries do not require kids to do daily homework. ..
However, this is not the structure taken by MOE or once the child is in P1. The Chinese textbooks are thematic based...just like the English textbooks. The 听写单follows the theme. Furthermore, in SA1/SA2, the child will be required to write 句子and later in P2-看图写画。
Does anyone knows :
1) Guide books which list and explain all the 部首 ? eg.
讠- 言字旁，related to words. and list the related 汉字“说、讲、讨、话
2) Where to find the list of 3,500 commonly used Chinese characters ? -
clarabella:
Just to share some things that I have learnt recently after I had a conversation with a friend, who's doing graduate work in Applied Linguistics, about the difficulties of learning Chinese
Oh dear, clarabella,
The moment I read that your friend is doing Applied Linguistics, I cannot read on already. That's exactly the course I'm eyeing at. Is he or she doing it at Master's level? Is it done in English? Is it an English course? If it is, how come your friend is doing something about Chinese? Is it research or coursework based?
So sorry! I'm really keen on the course, that's why the incessant questioning. -
Okay, I’ve finished reading your post, clarabella. Very insightful. It’s like how I picked up Chinese at the learning stage. Even now, I recognise Chinese characters as individual pictures, or in your word, more accurately, a symbol, and the way they look is almost phonics to me.
mathsparks,
Oh I see! I’m such an impatient person. I didn’t realise that it shows even in a forum. Thanks for telling me the interactive part. I’ll show it to my kid.
Actually, I don’t quite understand why most of you feel that there’re not many good Chinese books in Singapore. I feel that it’s not the books, but our children’s standard that’s the factor. Any book (apart from those pornographic materials and those with inappropriate content) can be a good book. I pick up new words from just about any book, even a Hong Kong or Taiwanese cookbook, craftbook. But when I look through the books in bookstores like Popular, I’ve difficulty finding a ‘good book’ for my kid becos I want something appropriate for her level. If not for her lack of interest and not-so-fantastic Chinese, I would be able to get books for her more easily eg. I almost finished reading whatever 琼瑶writes by the time I was in sec one, but I doubt my kid will be able to do that at the same age. But of course, I didn’t read Charlotte’s Web at kindy, so she can also say the same thing for my English.
Or do you mean that the books are too easy? The libraries will have enough ‘difficult’ Chinese books I thought.
But thanks for the dangdang site, the impatient me hasn’t looked at it yet.
tamarind,
Actually, I don’t quite understand what you mean by "remembering how to write Chinese characters by strokes is wrong".
When I write a Chinese character, I have a mental picture of how the character looks like, then I will write it stroke by stroke, and I will endeavour to ensure that I’m following the strokes correctly. When people ask me how to write a certain word and there’s no 部首, I will also tell and show them in strokes. Why can’t you remember how to write the characters in strokes? -
tamarind,
ooo … the dangdang website is so cute! I mean the books! It makes me want to read too! Haha, I love children’s books! But there’s no way to look at the pages of the books first right? How do you know whether it will be too simple or difficult for your kids?
I got another question which I hope won’t frustrate you: how to buy huh? The currency is in NT is it? How come it looks like yen to me? But NT also not correct, how can it be so cheap? I’m so sorry. I’m a techophobic.
Does dangdang deliver right to your doorstep? How long does that take? -
kiasimom:
It all depends on the child's standard of Chinese.
Are the books more \"approachable\" and appropriate for the children?
Are they filled with a lot of words and might frighten the children off?
Or they are very friendly and the children will enjoy reading it?
I have included photos of some of the pages in my blog :
http://tamarindvillage.blogspot.com/2009/12/reading-chinese-books.html
My girl attended Berries since 4 years old, so she has no problem reading the books now at 6 years old. Those who have not attended Chinese enrichment classes will find these books very difficult.
So you need to know the standard of your kids, and find suitable books for them.clarabella:
I totally agree with you.[Tamarind, if you're reading this, doesn't it sound like the idea behind the Ladybird series? ]
- In addition, once a learner is conversant with the common characters, the learning of new words become much easier because many 词汇 are combinations of familiar characters, and he only needs to learn new meanings since he already knows the separate characters.clarabella:
Take note that MOE does not teach phonics in primary schools. There are many kids who do not have any knowledge of phonics when they enter P1. MOE teachers expect kids to memorize the spelling of English words. That was what I did when I was young, I never heard of phonics until my kids were born.- In contrast, alphabet-based systems, such as modern English, offer a set of standardized written symbols. While limited in scope (think 26 letters!), it is far easier, relatively, for users to recall the sounds of words written in an alphabetic code.
In fact, I know many parents now who complain that English spelling is difficult and stressful. They do not understand that they can use phonics to help with spelling. -
cafelatte:
tamarind:
... kids should start by learning the 部首 and the simple Chinese characters first. This is also how the kids learn in Berries. My younger boy is only average, but he has no problem learning these with minimal practice. Berries do not require kids to do daily homework. ..
However, this is not the structure taken by MOE or once the child is in P1. The Chinese textbooks are thematic based...just like the English textbooks. The 听写单follows the theme. Furthermore, in SA1/SA2, the child will be required to write 句子and later in P2-看图写画。
Does anyone knows :
1) Guide books which list and explain all the 部首 ? eg.
讠- 言字旁，related to words. and list the related 汉字“说、讲、讨、话
2) Where to find the list of 3,500 commonly used Chinese characters ?
That's why many parents know that they cannot depend on MOE to teach Chinese. They are sending their kids to good enrichment classes like Berries to learn Chinese using effective methods.
Good books to learn Chinese are not available in Singapore. Try searching in http://www.dangdang.com. I am trying to get this series of books from China :
幼儿快速识字阅读法
http://product.dangdang.com/product.aspx?product_id=20645179
“四五快读”的汉字与小学课本同步，坚持半年可学完本套书，可以认识近千汉字，4000余词语（含130成语、俗语）。孩子入学后，即可轻松进入学习状态。 -
rains:
tamarind,
Actually, I don't quite understand what you mean by \"remembering how to write Chinese characters by strokes is wrong\".
When I write a Chinese character, I have a mental picture of how the character looks like, then I will write it stroke by stroke, and I will endeavour to ensure that I'm following the strokes correctly. When people ask me how to write a certain word and there's no 部首, I will also tell and show them in strokes. Why can't you remember how to write the characters in strokes?
The keyword is \"remember\". I remember Chinese words by their parts, not by the strokes.
For example, this word
游
can be split into
氵 方 子 (and the 2 strokes on top, don't know how to type)
Then it is sort of like remembering the spelling of English words.
This works provided kids are taught the 部首 and the simplest characters from a very young age. Once they have a good foundation, then when they see a word, they can naturally break it up in their mind in order to remember it.
We should also remember words in groups, for example :
弟 第 梯 涕 剃
My boy learned to write the word 弟 at 4 years old. In the future, when he learns the other words, he only has to remember to add the correct 部首 will do. The 部首 gives clues to the meaning of the words. For example, ladder is made of wood : 梯.
In fact, I found memorizing English spelling much worst without the knowledge of phonics, because English words can have so many letters. The most difficult Chinese words probably have 4 or 5 parts only.
Anyway this is not a method that I invented. My Chinese teachers used to teach the students this way.
[quote]ooo ... the dangdang website is so cute! I mean the books! It makes me want to read too! Haha, I love children's books! But there's no way to look at the pages of the books first right? How do you know whether it will be too simple or difficult for your kids?
I got another question which I hope won't frustrate you: how to buy huh? The currency is in NT is it? How come it looks like yen to me? But NT also not correct, how can it be so cheap? I'm so sorry. I'm a techophobic.
Does dangdang deliver right to your doorstep? How long does that take?[/quote]Yes dangdang delivers to Singapore addresses. But we need to have a Citibank credit card to order online. The website is from China, the currency is RMB. It takes about 4 to 6 weeks.
This bookshop http://bras-basah-complex.com.sg/bbc/2_shops/en_level_detail_1.asp?sid=03-005 at Bras Basah carries many books from dangdang. You can browse there. But the prices are so much more expensive than the website.
In order to choose suitable books from dangdang, you can select the correct age group for your kids. Of course remember that in China the standard of Chinese is much higher than our kids. -
Agree Maha YuYi has better Chinese books. They sell the books in SGD with the RMB price...eg RMB10, SGD10
then give some 10-20% discounts at times. Usually this period, year-end and school holidays, they will run some promotions.
I don't like the english->chinese translated books they carry. The 语法 is really kind of odd.
tamarind, I understand about Berries and about cannot rely on MOE. What I meant was once the children are in mainstream primary school, there's the pressure to keep up with what is being tested/exam-ed in school. Thus, it is thus difficult to keep up with the \"homeschool\" way of learning Chinese. Time have to be spent to cope with illogical 听写 list,理解问答and 作文。
tamarind, btw....dangdang only accepts Citibank credit card but not other bank ? -
tamarind:
I agree with the use of 'group', but I thought you need to be quite advanced in your learning of Chinese before you're able to apply that.The keyword is \"remember\". I remember Chinese words by their parts, not by the strokes.
For example, this word
游
can be split into
氵 方 子 (and the 2 strokes on top, don't know how to type)
Then it is sort of like remembering the spelling of English words.
This works provided kids are taught the 部首 and the simplest characters from a very young age. Once they have a good foundation, then when they see a word, they can naturally break it up in their mind in order to remember it.
We should also remember words in groups, for example :
弟 第 梯 涕 剃
My boy learned to write the word 弟 at 4 years old. In the future, when he learns the other words, he only has to remember to add the correct 部首 will do. The 部首 gives clues to the meaning of the words. For example, ladder is made of wood : 梯.
In fact, I found memorizing English spelling much worst without the knowledge of phonics, because English words can have so many letters. The most difficult Chinese words probably have 4 or 5 parts only.
Anyway this is not a method that I invented. My Chinese teachers used to teach the students this way.
I cannot agree wholly with the remembering of the characters by parts though. My kid keeps trying to remember the characters by parts, and I feel that it seems to interfere with her learning of Chinese. To me, it's very weird to remember characters like that, unless you're rote-learning a complicated word like 赢. And my kid is not able to retain the writing of the characters on a long term basis when she remembers them by parts. She would say things like,\"尖 is 小大.\" which doesn't amuse me at all. I actually discourage her from using this method. To counter that, I ask her questions to prompt her for the部首and I prefer her to remember the characters as a whole word or as a symbol. I am not expecting instantaneous results but I hope that by doing so, I can help to make her see Chinese characters as individual words on their own and eventually, build a firm foundation for her in the long run.
Do your kids benefit from learning to write the characters from remember them in parts?
I am just wondering what prompted you to send your kids to Berries at 4 when you're such an enthusiastic teaching mother? I didn't believe in sending my kid for enrichment or tuition, but now I am starting to have the \"ïf you can't beat them, join them\" mentality. -
rains:
I think so for our case. Whenever my dd asks me how to write a Chinese character, without writing to show her, I have to break down the character into simpler charaters and she will be able to understand what I mean and write out the character herself.
Do your kids benefit from learning to write the characters from remember them in parts?
For example, she asks me how to write 埋?
She knows 土 and she knows 里, then I just verbalise that it is a left/right character starting with 土 and 里 on the right then she will go....\"Orrrrrrggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I know already.\"
I think Chinese character is like lego pieces put together.
If one knows all the basic pieces, it can be used to \"stack\" all the various combo to form meaningful characters.
When I have the time, I will try to blog an extension to this discussion on \"Learning Chinese Characters the Lego way\"....
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