MOE not tweaking P1 registration

[Chenonceau]

Kagillus:

I don't see much help in future p1 registration. Going to be the same for next few decades.

Sorry dear... I can really understand your anguish. Would it help if MOE (in the next few years) evened out teaching quality so much that it really doesn't matter which school you register at... you would be assured of a decent education?

That would be so wonderful... then any school nearby would do and the kids can sleep till 7am instead of wake up at 5.30. Would that allay some concerns?

[Lilac66]

I feel that this Lawrence Wong is quite an earnest guy. He seems genuinely interested in listening. With him aboard, I believe things are looking up....

[Lilac66]

Laura02:

I think most primary schools now have a form teacher and a co-form teacher to each Pri class. So in theory, there is a ratio of 2 teachers to each class of 40.

Often, I see a teacher teaching the class, and another teacher sitting at the back of the class. Dc said that's the co-teacher. Hmm...

Yep, I also think the ratio is derived in that way.

[Funz]

Chenonceau:

Funz:

Wah lao! This is the kind of thing that makes people doubt MOE.
DO NOT CLAIM YOU HAVE STUDENT TEACHER RATIO OF 18 WHEN IT IS NOT!

If that person is not a teacher or teaching the class, that person cannot be part of the ratio. Don't talk numbers on papers, talk about real experience. And don't point out exceptions and speak about it like it is the norm.

Darn. Do they really think we are that stupid?

I don't understand you, Funz... Can you explain your thought process please?

Maybe it is due to my line of work. Maybe I do not fully understand. Or maybe I am reading it differently But I am using my layman understanding.

In my line, teacher to student ratio means 1 teacher to x students. Teacher teaching a class must be qualified and involved in teaching the class to be considered part of the ratio. If I have a staff who is qualified but not teaching that class she cannot be counted as part of that ratio. If I have a staff who is not qualified yet but supporting that class, she also does not count as part of that ratio.

So when you say you have teacher ratio of 18, I expect 1 teacher to 18 kids to be the normal scenario in schools. However, reality does not show that, our classes are as big as 40 in most schools.

And if it is really 1 teacher to 18 kids, then what are the teachers complaining about? They are handling only 18kids at any one time right?

hmmm maybe I am really reading it all wrong.

[corneyAmber]

Chenonceau:

ksi:

[quote=\"limlim\"]
I doubt so. They are doing practically nothing. What we get now is lip service only.. doesn't reflect any listening on their part..

Guess the traffic condition is not gonna get better.....

I also could feel that they are doing something. In fact they have always been doing something...maybe the speed just not good enough for us only.... :evil:

No... they would not have moved if we had not spoken up. This is as good as saying... why speak up, they would have done the right thing anyway? Or they were doing the right thing anyway SLOWLY. I am more in close touch with MOE than I am prepared to reveal publicly, and I am POSITIVE that some of these changes would not have happened if we had not communicated our needs.

It's like expecting our loved ones to know what we need without having to say it. Doesn't happen. MOE is a loved one. We need to talk to it and work with it. Not sit back and assume that it will do everything right.[/quote]Again you say things that I don't intend to say.

MOE has more than one media of feedback and there is a constant feedback channel that I know. They work slowly does not mean they are not working. Certain feedback due to its loudness definitely gets more immediate attention. It would be naive of us to think that our MOE does not innovate constantly to improve the education system. They spent a fair amount of time researching other systems as well and that is their core business. I would say strategically they fare better than their operational approach, perhaps because they think they have outsourced to the schools. And most of the things we pick on are operational flaws. Give them credit where it is due. They do not need to wait for us before they can be strategic about education. And it is good that they are showing they are not as arrogant as what some of us would like to make others think. It is great that they have decided to step up on the operations part.

If I have a \"loved\" one who give feedback like this to me, it would be harder to get across to me and I am not arrogant.

[Kagillus]

Chenonceau:

Kagillus:

I don't see much help in future p1 registration. Going to be the same for next few decades.

Sorry dear... I can really understand your anguish. Would it help if MOE (in the next few years) evened out teaching quality so much that it really doesn't matter which school you register at... you would be assured of a decent education?

That would be so wonderful... then any school nearby would do and the kids can sleep till 7am instead of wake up at 5.30. Would that allay some concerns?

It is the mindset of parents to change. You can't deny that there are parents who look at school that has historic background. Ask the parents who send kids to top school. Would they choose a school nrby that has 'similar standard as top school' or far away top school that can be guaranteed by phase 2a or b n deprive those stay nr by who needs them. Prob is not all parents opt for kids to get enough sleep n shorter traveling. that's why I say next decade will still be the same.

[corneyAmber]

Funz:

Sun_2010:

[quote=\"Funz\"]
Confuse, when has it ever been student teacher ratio of 18 to start with?

I had this confusion before too.
The student teacher ratio is the no of students to number of teachers. Not no of students in a class.

Wah lao! This is the kind of thing that makes people doubt MOE.
DO NOT CLAIM YOU HAVE STUDENT TEACHER RATIO OF 18 WHEN IT IS NOT!

If that person is not a teacher or teaching the class, that person cannot be part of the ratio. Don't talk numbers on papers, talk about real experience. And don't point out exceptions and speak about it like it is the norm.

Darn. Do they really think we are that stupid?[/quote]I understand what you are saying. At preschool level whenever we talk about teacher-student ratio, we talk about it at a class level because parents would want to know this as part of understanding if they are paying value for money. Whenever MOE reports teacher-student ratio, it does it at the school level, not because they plan to \"cheat\" parents but they manage at the school level when they despatch teachers to the schools!

I know it is hard for us to see MOE level and maybe easier for MOE to see parents' level and that is our expectation anyway. I believe they are learning.

[Chenonceau]

ksi:

Again you say things that I don't intend to say.

I apologise. I have misunderstood your intent.

ksi:

MOE has more than one media of feedback and there is a constant feedback channel that I know. They work slowly does not mean they are not working. Certain feedback due to its loudness definitely gets more immediate attention. It would be naive of us to think that our MOE does not innovate constantly to improve the education system. They spent a fair amount of time researching other systems as well and that is their core business.

We know this. MOE has crowed about this often enough in every media and on their website.

ksi:

I would say strategically they fare better than their operational approach, perhaps because they think they have outsourced to the schools. And most of the things we pick on are operational flaws. Give them credit where it is due. They do not need to wait for us before they can be strategic about education. And it is good that they are showing they are not as arrogant as what some of us would like to make others think. It is great that they have decided to step up on the operations part.

Good strategic thinking is well and good. Operational flaws are what forms the reality on the ground.

ksi:

If I have a \"loved\" one who give feedback like this to me, it would be harder to get across to me and I am not arrogant.

My initial feedback to MOE was very very polite. I only started to call them deluded when
(1) they styled themselves world class and
(2) maintained that textbooks are lousy because schools have to write curriculum
(3) kept ever so quiet about large class sizes

This is the first time MOE has publicly announced that they have heard us. Unfortunately, even with loved ones, you sometimes need to be loud and insistent. As for giving credit where credit is due... we are not dealing with a child we should pamper and praise. They already know what they're good at since they crow so much about how good they are. Many of us just need them to acknowledge that some things need improvement.

[Sun_2010]

Funz:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"Funz\"]
Wah lao! This is the kind of thing that makes people doubt MOE.
DO NOT CLAIM YOU HAVE STUDENT TEACHER RATIO OF 18 WHEN IT IS NOT!

If that person is not a teacher or teaching the class, that person cannot be part of the ratio. Don't talk numbers on papers, talk about real experience. And don't point out exceptions and speak about it like it is the norm.

Darn. Do they really think we are that stupid?

I don't understand you, Funz... Can you explain your thought process please?

Maybe it is due to my line of work. Maybe I do not fully understand. Or maybe I am reading it differently But I am using my layman understanding.

In my line, teacher to student ratio means 1 teacher to x students. Teacher teaching a class must be qualified and involved in teaching the class to be considered part of the ratio. If I have a staff who is qualified but not teaching that class she cannot be counted as part of that ratio. If I have a staff who is not qualified yet but supporting that class, she also does not count as part of that ratio.

So when you say you have teacher ratio of 18, I expect 1 teacher to 18 kids to be the normal scenario in schools. However, reality does not show that, our classes are as big as 40 in most schools.

And if it is really 1 teacher to 18 kids, then what are the teachers complaining about? They are handling only 18kids at any one time right?

hmmm maybe I am really reading it all wrong.[/quote]I am not sure if it is clear.
all teachers are counted. It could be that there are some PE teachers who only do that to differnt classes , then they are counted. The HOD or year head usually are not form teachers but do teach some subjects. Like in my DS school a level has 3-4 teachers in addition to the form teachers. so 10 classes could have 13- 14 teachers assigned. In addition to this are the mother tongue teachers.

I just did a quick check for my child's school . Currently, There are about 2000 + students. And close to 110 teachers

[Chenonceau]

Kagillus:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"Kagillus\"]I don't see much help in future p1 registration. Going to be the same for next few decades.

Sorry dear... I can really understand your anguish. Would it help if MOE (in the next few years) evened out teaching quality so much that it really doesn't matter which school you register at... you would be assured of a decent education?

That would be so wonderful... then any school nearby would do and the kids can sleep till 7am instead of wake up at 5.30. Would that allay some concerns?

It is the mindset of parents to change. You can't deny that there are parents who look at school that has historic background. Ask the parents who send kids to top school. Would they choose a school nrby that has 'similar standard as top school' or far away top school that can be guaranteed by phase 2a or b n deprive those stay nr by who needs them. Prob is not all parents opt for kids to get enough sleep n shorter traveling. that's why I say next decade will still be the same.[/quote]Thanks for clarifying. I now understand better.