MOE not tweaking P1 registration
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Chenonceau:
That is what I have issue with. At first 'read' the conclusion will be that we have an average class size of 18 currently. And the cynic in me tells me that that is what they are trying to do. To give the impression that the class size is no where near the 40/class that it is now, and especially when he pointed out the 2 teachers in a class of 40 scenario which we know is not the norm.I think it is a bit difficult for MOE to reduce class size to 1:18 quickly, especially if they wanna maintain Teacher Quality. I'm seeing a multi-pronged approach that also includes supporting teachers in their teaching through...
(1) ready made learning materials
(2) more extensive sharing of teaching resources
With such resourcing, Teachers can already cope better even if actual class sizes stay at 35 or so...
I'm also ok with their interpretation of student:teacher ratio as long as it is defined. But PR wise, it may lead to people saying MOE is trying to pull a fast one. But that's just a comms problem.
I also think it is not possible for them to reduce class size to 18 now. I personally 25-30 is a good size for upper primary. That size allows for diversity and a good opportunity for cross learning. Too small a class, it becomes boring and a bit limiting especially if you are embarking on more project base learning. -
phtthp:
I think we should keep GEP out of this. It unnecessarily inflames the discussion. If GEP has 25, fine. Don't take from Peter to pay Paul. Get more money to pay Paul... and that is what MOE is already signaling its intention to do.Lilac66:
I agree with Funz interpretation of ratio. We should be talking about the number of teachers teaching a class at any one time. That's why GEP students are an envied lot with one of the reasons being the smaller class size of 20-25 vs mainstream's 40
why GEP classes can have 25 kids max, but Mainstream cannot (at the moment is around 40 for Upper primary) ? If they can do it to GEP, why not to Mainstream too ?
after all, MOE keep hiring so many trainee teachers every batch / year. They come in easily. There is no lack of teachers. So teacher staff resources should not be an issue ... at most, can open up more classes.
Let's keep this discussion cool. -
phtthp:
Read before you are an ex-teacher, right?Lilac66:
I agree with Funz interpretation of ratio. We should be talking about the number of teachers teaching a class at any one time. That's why GEP students are an envied lot with one of the reasons being the smaller class size of 20-25 vs mainstream's 40
why GEP classes can have 25 kids max, but Mainstream cannot (at the moment is around 40 for Upper primary) ? If they can do it to GEP, why not to Mainstream too ?
after all, MOE keep hiring so many trainee teachers every batch / year. They come in easily. There is no lack of teachers. So teacher staff resources should not be an issue ... at most, can open up more classes. -
Chenonceau:
I think we should keep GEP out of this. It unnecessarily inflames the discussion. If GEP has 25, fine. Don't take from Peter to pay Paul. Get more money to pay Paul... and that is what MOE is already signaling its intention to do.phtthp:
[quote=\"Lilac66\"] I agree with Funz interpretation of ratio. We should be talking about the number of teachers teaching a class at any one time. That's why GEP students are an envied lot with one of the reasons being the smaller class size of 20-25 vs mainstream's 40
why GEP classes can have 25 kids max, but Mainstream cannot (at the moment is around 40 for Upper primary) ? If they can do it to GEP, why not to Mainstream too ?
after all, MOE keep hiring so many trainee teachers every batch / year. They come in easily. There is no lack of teachers. So teacher staff resources should not be an issue ... at most, can open up more classes.
Let's keep this discussion cool.[/quote]
haha..yes. Pls keep this GEP discussion out coz there are other threads on this. Hope my intent is not misunderstood. I'm just trying to say that smaller classes are what alot of parents crave for coz when GEP is mentioned, one of the things they envy is the smaller class size.
:xedfingers: -
Funz:
Yeah... makes sense.
That is what I have issue with. At first 'read' the conclusion will be that we have an average class size of 18 currently. And the cynic in me tells me that that is what they are trying to do. To give the impression that the class size is no where near the 40/class that it is now, and especially when he pointed out the 2 teachers in a class of 40 scenario which we know is not the norm.Chenonceau:
I think it is a bit difficult for MOE to reduce class size to 1:18 quickly, especially if they wanna maintain Teacher Quality. I'm seeing a multi-pronged approach that also includes supporting teachers in their teaching through...
(1) ready made learning materials
(2) more extensive sharing of teaching resources
With such resourcing, Teachers can already cope better even if actual class sizes stay at 35 or so...
I'm also ok with their interpretation of student:teacher ratio as long as it is defined. But PR wise, it may lead to people saying MOE is trying to pull a fast one. But that's just a comms problem.
I also think it is not possible for them to reduce class size to 18 now. I personally 25-30 is a good size for upper primary. That size allows for diversity and a good opportunity for cross learning. Too small a class, it becomes boring and a bit limiting especially if you are embarking on more project base learning. -
Lilac66:
Oops sorry... I should have taken out your quote before I responded to phtthp. But yes... what I noticed was that Minister talked about small class size as being not empirically shown to be effective - so why does GEP have 25?
haha..yes. Pls keep this GEP discussion out coz there are other threads on this. Hope my intent is not misunderstood. I'm just trying to say that smaller classes are what alot of parents crave for coz when GEP is mentioned, one of the things they envy is the smaller class size.
:xedfingers:
Just asking.
I am happy that GEP has 25 because I happen to think small class size is important. But he says it is not. Teacher quality more important. But anyway, there is intent to reduce class size in mainstream and that, for the moment, is good news. -
Funz:
No worries , that is what I thought too. After all that is what we look out for when enrolling in Preschool.
Really ah? In that case, I should change my marketing materials to reflect that we have a student teacher ratio of less than 8. And if I add staff who are qualified but not teaching at all, my ratio is even lower. And I add therapists who come in to support special needs kids, wow, I can claim my ratio is 4. How wonderful. And I can even claim that it is lower as, we have practicums who join us that means 2 teachers to 1 class, hurray, we are giving your kids 1-1.Sun_2010:
Err...Looks like that is the accepted def of the term Student teacher ratio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student%E2%80%93teacher_ratio
Sorry Sun2010. Not targetting at you hor. I am just :siao: today.
Only some months back i came to know that Student teacher ratio and class size are different. Give it a thought , it makes sense for bigger children who tend to have specialised teachers. That is why for Sec schools the ration is even more teachers than for Primary schools. -
Chenonceau:
Oops sorry... I should have taken out your quote before I responded to phtthp.
No worries
Chenonceau:
Agree.. any move by MOE in the right direction (deemed by most) is always happy news.But anyway, there is intent to reduce class size in mainstream and that, for the moment, is good news.
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Sun_2010:
I am confused. This is Math so I'm a bit handicapped. This article (http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Edvantage/Story/A1Story20120409-338585.html) reports... \"He concluded that MOE plans to reduce the student teacher ratio in primary schools from 18 to 15 and from 16 to 13 in secondary schools.\"
No worries , that is what I thought too. After all that is what we look out for when enrolling in Preschool.
Only some months back i came to know that Student teacher ratio and class size are different. Give it a thought , it makes sense for bigger children who tend to have specialised teachers. That is why for Sec schools the ration is even more teachers than for Primary schools.
You are saying that classes in secondary school should be smaller... and those in primary should be larger... and those in preschool should be smaller? Is it? -
Chenonceau:
Oh dear, i am clouding things even more :nailbite:
I am confused. This is Math so I'm a bit handicapped. This article (http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Edvantage/Story/A1Story20120409-338585.html) reports... \"He concluded that MOE plans to reduce the student teacher ratio in primary schools from 18 to 15 and from 16 to 13 in secondary schools.\"Sun_2010:
No worries , that is what I thought too. After all that is what we look out for when enrolling in Preschool.
Only some months back i came to know that Student teacher ratio and class size are different. Give it a thought , it makes sense for bigger children who tend to have specialised teachers. That is why for Sec schools the ration is even more teachers than for Primary schools.
You are saying that classes in secondary school should be smaller... and those in primary should be larger... and those in preschool should be smaller? Is it?
As per my interpretation of the report :
Currently in primary schools there are 18 students for every teacher . This will be reduced to 15 students to every teacher. Which means that more teachers will be added since the number of students are about the same.
Currently in Secondary schools there are 16 students for every teacher . This current secondary school ratio is better than the primary school ratio. (means there are already more teachers in Secondary school than primary school assuming almost all primary school students go to secondary). This will be reduced to 13 students to every teacher.
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