Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?

[sinoboy]

Dora1:

concern2:

[quote=\"ruohoo97\"]
:grphug: applause. Would be nice to have more such ksps. To be honest, it is human for parents wish their children better than what they had been through, especially if they had gone through a hard time. But, think about, those generations who had gone through the hardship made today's Singapore. If more locals don't mind to do those jobs, then no need Foreign immigration (FT or FW) , then no need 6.9 millions .

:hi5: But hor, next time who would want to marry my boy if he is a plumber? :faint: See, I don't mind if he's a plumber and he gets to spend more time with family. I also don't mind them wanting to get married earlier and have children at a younger age, and I can be a grandparent at an age which I can be mobile enough to give a helping hand if needed...only thing is would kiasuparents want their DD to marry a plumber?

Well, if he can earn a decent pay, own a flat, I'm sure there will be people who are willing to marry him. I think the crux of the problem is the super low wages. Plumbers, carpenters, mechanics are also technical people who deserve a decent pay. If they can earn a decent pay like say, and IT professional does, then why not? I won't mind my DD marry a plumber, it's the pay!!![/quote]Agree it's the pay. Be it plumber, stall owner, hairdressor as long as drive big car and live in big house who cares? Top hairdressers like Lavid Gan can command very high pay you know!

But parents cannot expect a pulmber boy to bring home a highly educated presentable non-ah lian non-ah soh OL executive lah. A lot of mothers this one cannot that one no good. They should look at their own son first. But consolation is that with 6.9 million people, more choices are made available.

[Dreamaurora]

pirate:

Dora1:

I totally agree with you. 10+ years ago, when I was a fresh graduate, I had no problems look for a job even though I have no experience. The companies were will to give us a chance and train us. Now, in the stat board that I am in, there are 10 fresh uni grads who have technical degrees fr NUS and NTU, doing temp data entry and admin work. They said they can't find work, cos the companies all don't want to hire fresh graduates. My friends who are still in the industry say that's because for the same pay, they can hire FTs with abt 3-5 years experience.

Maybe you should ask those 10 fresh uni grads why they never take the initiative to offer to take a lower pay to undergo on-the-job training doing the front-line operations work of their desired prospective employers? Why they rather go do data-entry and low level admin work in a stat board? How they expect to get relevant experience if they not willing to get their hands dirty or their shirts sweaty or scolded by unreasonable customers?

I think this also got to do with how children nowadays are brought up. If as a parent we keep emphasizing our kids to study hard and get a cushy office job, obviously our children will think twice before accepting lower pay or mundane jobs. Because doing so will cause them to 'lose face'.

I am really fascinated by how people in this island view these jobs. When I watch sitcoms from USA, I notice that even the blue collar workers are portrayed very favourably e.g. that plumber hunk from Desperate Housewives. I once asked my angmor friend and really he said that back in his country the social stigma associated with the blue collar jobs is far less than Singapore. I hope one day we can reach a point where all jobs are treated with respect and we all can be proud of whatever jobs our kids partake.

[hercules]

Dora1:

For many of them. they were not even given the opportunity to go for interviews, not to talk about counter offering the pay.

Always read about a high % of grads from xxx uni can get a job within x months, from another uni within y months, at average $x etc.

But this doesnt seem to reflect the experiences we have on the grounds.

I went to a childcare career fair before once when I kpo while in suntec. I spoke to people there. There are women in their 40s (I met two), having about 20 years of experiences working in legal firms, looking at switching jobs paying at around $2K to be trainee preschool teachers (actual reasons of switch I am not sure but both spoke well. By their number of years of working experience, anytime pay should be around the $7K region). Then there are biomed fresh grads, also looking at being trained to be preschool teachers.

So, even if high level of employment, just exactly what are the jobs, whether relevant or not relevant, that each is having? Or we must be damn happi already if we ever have a job, regardless of what it is?

[pirate]

Dora1:

For many of them. they were not even given the opportunity to go for interviews, not to talk about counter offering the pay. From my friends of the industry, fresh grads have no chance at all, which is very different from my experience in the industry 10+ years ago as a fresh grad.

These grads are here in the stat board because we are still remotely related to the industry. They still hope to go back to the industry some day, and this is the closest to experience they can get. They told me many of their friends are now in insurance or housing agents or teachers, which is totally unrelated to the industry cos they have given up looking. These young people who are trained using taxpayers money are lost to the industry forever.

I wonder how many of them actually wrote in their application letter, \"I know I am a fresh graduate with no relevant experience. However, I am eager to learn on the job. I would be pleased to be given an opportunity to start at the factory floor on a non-graduate trainee's allowance instead of graduate pay.\" Bet you that would get them at least an interview somewhere for no other reason than sheer initiative.

And that is the problem with some of our young fresh graduates.

[keroppi]

MMM:

concern2:

:hi5: But hor, next time who would want to marry my boy if he is a plumber? :faint: See, I don't mind if he's a plumber and he gets to spend more time with family. I also don't mind them wanting to get married earlier and have children at a younger age, and I can be a grandparent at an age which I can be mobile enough to give a helping hand if needed...only thing is would kiasuparents want their DD to marry a plumber?

Concern2,

Maybe you got foresight... For all you know, maybe a plumber is paid more than a doctor next time. As without the plumber, maybe it will be :imconstipated:

Why not? My plumber, car mechanic and aircon service man charge quite a bit for their services. In fact, the latter stays in a condo, doing very well. When I go for movies on weekday afternoons, I even see him and his kids there. Got work life balance some more.

[Dora1]

Dreamaurora:

I think this also got to do with how children nowadays are brought up. If as a parent we keep emphasizing our kids to study hard and get a cushy office job, obviously our children will think twice before accepting lower pay or mundane jobs. Because doing so will cause them to 'lose face'.

I am really fascinated by how people in this island view these jobs. When I watch sitcoms from USA, I notice that even the blue collar workers are portrayed very favourably e.g. that plumber hunk from Desperate Housewives. I once asked my angmor friend and really he said that back in his country the social stigma associated with the blue collar jobs is far less than Singapore. I hope one day we can reach a point where all jobs are treated with respect and we all can be proud of whatever jobs our kids partake.

The \"face\" is directly related to the pay. If your son works as a cook in the coffeeshop vs chef in a 5 * hotel, what is the difference in the face? They are essentially the same job, the difference is the pay! No face if you are lower income and every month have to wait for gov's this and that grant in order to survive.

[3Boys]

Why does one assume that the lack of suitable job opportunities is down to the presence of foreign workers? One can make the case that if not for the presence of foreign workers (FTs, FWs or what have you), we would have even FEWER industries, and FEWER companies and FEWER HQs, and therefore, even less jobs for Singaporeans.


If having greater numbers of qualified workers take away jobs, then countries like the Philippines, India, China should have tons of high value jobs available for their resident citizens, since they are exporting tons of their most highly qualified people to OTHER countries, right?

So what’s the truth? Foreigners create jobs or foreigners take away jobs? It’s both.

People make it out to be a zero-sum game, when it is far from being the case.

[concern2]

Laura02:

MMM:

We do observed a resource crunch recently at various food places. Plates will pile up, etc...

We all nid to learn to clear our own trays ....

Sometimes, in the name of efficiency, we lose out in other (finer) things in life.

Remember the times when we had more hawker centres, hawkers mended their own stalls and cleared dishes that belonged to them? They had to come up with their own manpower (usually their spouses, children / friends/ relatives). When they collected back their own utensils, they could tell if customers liked their food or not (left-overs if they don't like). Yes, things could be tough for them then, but their helped them to be efficient, to be alert - they practice mental arithmetic, memory training (remembering customers), they move around more.

Now, hawkers are different. Many are not even their own bosses. They get a salary, hence not driven by profitability. They know if customers like their food only when sales isn't picking up, and declines - which by then is already too late. For them, it wasn't their problem anyway. For those who mend their own stalls, their rentals are likely to take a hike after each renovation/ upgrading. For many hawkers, without an alternative place to continue with business, they retire. Many start developing high-blood pressure and the modern illnesses due to the sudden change in life-style and lack of physical activities. In time, they may find work as cleaners, work in Macs, but it is never the same - they are now workers.

Why do we need more and more workers? Don't we need more business-driven people so we don't rely so much on foreign investments? Why are hawker centres being demolished? And why are big corporations being given opportunities to rent out instead of small hawkers being given a chance to develop their own businesses? They existed before, why remove them? It is a non-reversible process, and the worse is yet to come. I feel.

Our system trains people to work, not to create. Our system drives people to be reliant - not to be self-reliant. Continue to get in more workers for the big corporations, and worse will be yet to come - for the people, not those at the top.

[concern2]

Dora1:

concern2:

[quote=\"concern2\"]

Whatever one craves, there is a cost. I don't mind if my boy decides to be a plumber one day if he finds it is the most productive thing to do for a living - esp. if there is a market shortage. It is an honest living. But he must still get a tertiary education. Education should not be about what he does for a living later on. Doesn't mean if he can be a plumber now, I will not push him to do well in his studies. Hence, I never like to give kids the idea that they must study hard now so next time can make more money. They are 2 different issues. JMHO.

:hi5: But hor, next time who would want to marry my boy if he is a plumber? :faint: See, I don't mind if he's a plumber and he gets to spend more time with family. I also don't mind them wanting to get married earlier and have children at a younger age, and I can be a grandparent at an age which I can be mobile enough to give a helping hand if needed...only thing is would kiasuparents want their DD to marry a plumber?

Well, if he can earn a decent pay, own a flat, I'm sure there will be people who are willing to marry him. I think the crux of the problem is the super low wages. Plumbers, carpenters, mechanics are also technical people who deserve a decent pay. If they can earn a decent pay like say, and IT professional does, then why not? I won't mind my DD marry a plumber, it's the pay!!![/quote] See, it's never about an honest day's work!

[Dora1]

3Boys:

Why does one assume that the lack of suitable job opportunities is down to the presence of foreign workers? One can make the case that if not for the presence of foreign workers (FTs, FWs or what have you), we would have even FEWER industries, and FEWER companies and FEWER HQs, and therefore, even less jobs for Singaporeans.


If having greater numbers of qualified workers take away jobs, then countries like the Philippines, India, China should have tons of high value jobs available for their resident citizens, since they are exporting tons of their most highly qualified people to OTHER countries, right?

So what's the truth? Foreigners create jobs or foreigners take away jobs? It's both.

People make it out to be a zero-sum game, when it is far from being the case.

I can't speak for all industries, but for my industry, the MNCs are here because of the infrastructure and good work attitude of SCs. The preference to hire FT started because some local HR started to hire some FTs (which is fine with me). Then the numbers just started to swell when one of them made it to a management position. And it seems that it became very common in the industry, with some depts having 70-80% from the same country, adopting the work culture of their home country.
Like I have shared earlier, due to a few major incidents in a few different companies, a few MNCs have decided to relook at their investment plans in SG because they feel that they are now paying 1st world overheads for a workforce with 3rd world working attitude.
That's why I am really worried when we say 55% of the population will be foreigners. Then why would investors pay a premium to come here then? They are here for the SC working attitude and infrastructure.