Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?
-
pirate:
Is just semantics..Dreamgear:
IT is not part of the economy? You seems to harbour some disdain for this particular segment.....
I am just amused that some of our IT boys seem to think that the IT department of an MNC is the same as the 'IT industry'. If you are in the IT department of a company, you are not in the IT industry. You are performing a supporting function to whatever industry your company is in.
You mean if that mnc decides to outsource its IT support to an IT company, then the part of it suddenly becomes part of IT industry economy but when it was done in-house, it was not considered an IT economy...is meaningless classification. -
3Boys:
A leopard doesn't change its spots. Seeing is believing.WeiHan:
You should go to the ground and really learn what happens. I am sure theory in their plan don't take into considerations such as human nature to employ their own kind, how about office politics and culture? If it becomes predominantly foreign, then locals (even good in skills or knowledge) may not fit into the culture anymore...and there are many more possible factors that may not be considered in the beautiful master plan theory that gov has in mind...then reality drift further and further away from theory.....
What a fairy tale. :roll:
Sad thing is that some people actually believe it.
Singaporeans have gone overseas and excelled in foreign companies in foreign lands. For the longest time, MNCs that have set up here have always had mostly staffed with HQ people to begin with.
The much vaunted world beating Singapore worker being run over in a company because of a foreign culture? :siao:
When I wrote the above, I have some acquaintances who are in the IT line facing such problems. One of them has a first class honours degree from NUS and was already facing such issues with his hard-found first job after graduation. The experience of a few forumners further strengtened my belief that the scenario is true. -
pirate:
Initiatives of what? Cut pay and do factory workers job with a engineering degree or whatever degrees?
Did the 10 uni grads who are content doing data entry and low level admin work make the effort to take that initiative? Stop making excuses for them.
Some people do that (asking for lower position job with hefty pay cut) but the interviewers just look at them with disbelief. -
pirate:
I am not familiar with IT lines. But from my impression, if you do not have a job, what retraining helps? One that I knew isn't average. 1st class honors degree from NUS isn't an easy feat especially we have bright foreign students competing in there nowadays. I know you may say a degree, whatever it is means nothing nowaday...but my point is that some of them facing problems aren't just average IQ guys...and they have no EQ problem also....no communication skill problem...normal high intelligence people but facing this kind of problem.
No. I am suggesting that they should be re-training. IT is very competitive, cut-throat and borderless unless they are one of those rare animals that can also make creative content. The writing is on the wall when the Malaysia IT industry can make better cartoons than Singapore. It is a perfect example of how a skill-based competitive advantage that we supposedly enjoy can disappear practically overnight.Dreamaurora:
I think you have to understand that back in the 1990s and early 2000s there was this boom in the IT demand in Singapore and government instructed the tertiary to produce more graduates in this field. I was a Multimedia student in SP during early 2000 and the demand was so hot that companies were snapping up the students even before graduation.
Fast forward to today and obviously the demand has slowed down by quite a lot. The problem is now there is a large pool of tertiary IT graduates produced during those times vying for that ever diminishing pie. By the way, IT departments ever since my time has always been rather FT heavy and it is still true till today. I still got in touch with my poly mates and seriously a large number of them are no longer in IT line. And yes, that includes me.
So now there are a lot of disgruntled IT graduates making a lot of noise online because they find it hard to compete in the job market. The reality of the job market now is very different from last time. I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that when the when drafting national policies government should ignore these group of people. After all they are still your fellow citizens trying to make a honest living in this city. -
3Boys:
I don't disagree with Wei Han. A similar scenario is now being played out in professional service organisations. FT Consultants are brought in to take up leadership roles and as they become entrenched in the company, they start to hire \"cheaper\" FT. They do not see it as wrong as to them they are hiring \"cheaper\" and SG is reputed to be open economy which means if FT and SC have same qualification, experience etc. then FT is hired if cheaper. Once inside then eventually because HR policies in place the FT becomes as expensive as SC but now FT is already entrenched.WeiHan:
You should go to the ground and really learn what happens. I am sure theory in their plan don't take into considerations such as human nature to employ their own kind, how about office politics and culture? If it becomes predominantly foreign, then locals (even good in skills or knowledge) may not fit into the culture anymore...and there are many more possible factors that may not be considered in the beautiful master plan theory that gov has in mind...then reality drift further and further away from theory.....
What a fairy tale. :roll:
Sad thing is that some people actually believe it.
Singaporeans have gone overseas and excelled in foreign companies in foreign lands. For the longest time, MNCs that have set up here have always had mostly staffed with HQ people to begin with.
The much vaunted world beating Singapore worker being run over in a company because of a foreign culture? :siao:
It is a simple and logical way to behave and there is nothing wrong with it, since the SC is at fault for being more expensive in the beginning. FTs from China, India etc. are always cheaper to start with so why hire SCs, it makes no economic sense.
The SC graduate appears to assume they are entitled to a certain starting pay but why? They should accept a low starting pay and prove themselves 1st. Then from economic point of view SC will be hired 1st instead of FT.
SCs need not worry about fighting for jobs with FTs if they are prepared to start at low pay and work hard. There is no iron rice bowl for SC. -
Just relax:
I don't disagree with Wei Han. A similar scenario is now being played out in professional service organisations. FT Consultants are brought in to take up leadership roles and as they become entrenched in the company, they start to hire \"cheaper\" FT. They do not see it as wrong as to them they are hiring \"cheaper\" and SG is reputed to be open economy which means if FT and SC have same qualification, experience etc. then FT is hired if cheaper. Once inside then eventually because HR policies in place the FT becomes as expensive as SC but now FT is already entrenched.3Boys:
[quote=\"WeiHan\"] You should go to the ground and really learn what happens. I am sure theory in their plan don't take into considerations such as human nature to employ their own kind, how about office politics and culture? If it becomes predominantly foreign, then locals (even good in skills or knowledge) may not fit into the culture anymore...and there are many more possible factors that may not be considered in the beautiful master plan theory that gov has in mind...then reality drift further and further away from theory.....
What a fairy tale. :roll:
Sad thing is that some people actually believe it.
Singaporeans have gone overseas and excelled in foreign companies in foreign lands. For the longest time, MNCs that have set up here have always had mostly staffed with HQ people to begin with.
The much vaunted world beating Singapore worker being run over in a company because of a foreign culture? :siao:
It is a simple and logical way to behave and there is nothing wrong with it, since the SC is at fault for being more expensive in the beginning. FTs from China, India etc. are always cheaper to start with so why hire SCs, it makes no economic sense.
The SC graduate appears to assume they are entitled to a certain starting pay but why? They should accept a low starting pay and prove themselves 1st. Then from economic point of view SC will be hired 1st instead of FT.
SCs need not worry about fighting for jobs with FTs if they are prepared to start at low pay and work hard. There is no iron rice bowl for SC.[/quote]I hope your post is meant as a sarcasm as the situation is not as straightforward as you paint it to be.
First, these FT managers tend to hire FTs of their own nationalities or races. Not because they are cheaper, but because they will be easier to work with as they will share the same culture.
And second, local graduates need to service education loans, give money to parents, save for future marriages, etc. They will definitely need higher starting pay as they will be spending most of their income in Singapore. This is in contrast to FTs who most likely will return to their countries once they acquire enough savings. For some graduates, accepting lower income below market rate may not be entirely practical.
There is no iron rice bowl nowadays. But I do think more can be done to give local graduates more equal footing to these FTs. -
pirate:
This is another chicken and egg situation. IT line is kind of unique in the sense that a basic diploma or degree is often insufficient to secure a job. To keep relevant to the market, an IT professional need to continually take up courses and gain new certifications. This is unlike most other fields where training is provided on the job itself. And seriously speaking, these courses and tests cost a bomb in Singapore.
No. I am suggesting that they should be re-training. IT is very competitive, cut-throat and borderless unless they are one of those rare animals that can also make creative content. The writing is on the wall when the Malaysia IT industry can make better cartoons than Singapore. It is a perfect example of how a skill-based competitive advantage that we supposedly enjoy can disappear practically overnight.
For an IT professional who is currently earning low pay or unemployed, these courses will be financially out of reach for them. And hence he may find himself easily outdated. The only way for him to stay employed is to compete with FTs on price point and hope training is provided in house. -
WeiHan:
Was casually browsing past posts and suddenly saw the post quoted above. Hmmn…think I’ll try to calculate the figure...
Not all problem can be solved by throwing money at it...This may be true but it was not what I was driving at. Universal health care was just an example that I cited. The main gist of my point was that why the need to increase tax while no social welfare program will be implemented? The nurse problem that you bring up...FW/FTs quota should be considered in a industry by industry basis. More work for gov? yes....we live a complicated world so more work is necessary get work done correctly.pirate:
This one I have to say something about.
Solli hor. Not every problem can be solved by the govt just throwing money at it. Even a $10,000 bill don't know how to stick a needle in a patient. To get the healthcare system Singaporeans want means we must have more nurses. Last I saw, Singaporeans don't really want to do nursing. So, that means more FTs if you want that kind of healthcare. Even if the govt throws more money at it, it's not going to make it unnecessary to have more FT nurses.
Yah. Most of the people online wants to be PME. And they want their children eventually to be able to find a nice PME job. I purposely took out the \"T\" because Singaporeans generally do not want to get their hands dirty, so most do not want to be technicians. Heck, many of our technicians we have now are S-Pass holders. Let's just say \"T\" is not the career path most of us would choose for our kids if we can help it.
As for the \"P\" part - professionals, most professionals do not earn half as much as what people think. Those who do, have to make sacrifices in terms of worklife balance. Why? Because it's very competitive, and only the top of the pile gets to make tons of money. The average \"P\" only earns enough to be middle income. Already, many are complaining that education is too stressful in Singapore. Well... duh. If you aren't at the top of the pile, you cannot be a successful \"P\" because there will always be somebody smarter and hungrier than you to steal your cheese. The sacrifices required to become a \"P\" starts at primary school.
As for \"ME\". Well, in order to be \"ME\" there must be people for you to \"ME\" over, doesn't it? So, should these people that you want to \"ME\" over be FTs or citizens? I don't know. You choose. :scratchhead:
About PMEs...yes...I am curious. according to the white paper, by 2030, 70% of the citizens/PRs will be PMEs. So, how are there so many people for you to \"me\" over? 70% 'me\" over 30%?
According to the white paper, by 2030, composition of population is as follows:
Total population: 6.5 – 6.9 million
SC & PR : 4.2 – 4.4 million.
SC : 3.6 – 3.8 million
Two-thirds of Singaporeans (I presume is SC) will hold PMET jobs.
To simplify calculations, I'll just take the upper limit of the given projected figures:
SC: 3.8 million, of which two-thirds (appx. 2.5 million) will hold PMET jobs.
SC: 1.3 million will hold non PMET jobs.
PR: 0.6 million
FT: 6.9 – 4.4 = 2.5 million
I'm not sure out of the 3.1 million PR & FT, how many would be PMET, assuming 1 million are PMET, so left about 2.1 million non-PMET PR & FT.
So, 2.5 million of PMET Singaporeans against 1.3 + 2.1 = 3.4 million of non-PMET (SC + PR + FT).
Hee hee, quite a lot to “me” over. -
pirate:
So they say. They seem to not like these FT on the MRT trains or in the HDB flats or in the malls or in the parks or taking their food orders or driving the buses or even talking amongst themselves.[/quote]I think in general, Singaporeans are quite an accepting lot with regards to FTs. It’s the EXCESSIVE number that tilts the balance, which is making people unhappy.
The govt already come up with the answer mah.. Foreign \"talent\".limlim:
[quote=\"pirate\"]
So how?
Based on the discussion in other forums, many do not oppose to having FT in these sectors. -
Dreamaurora:
I hope your post is meant as a sarcasm as the situation is not as straightforward as you paint it to be.Just relax:
[quote=\"WeiHan\"] You should go to the ground and really learn what happens. I am sure theory in their plan don't take into considerations such as human nature to employ their own kind, how about office politics and culture? If it becomes predominantly foreign, then locals (even good in skills or knowledge) may not fit into the culture anymore...and there are many more possible factors that may not be considered in the beautiful master plan theory that gov has in mind...then reality drift further and further away from theory.....
I don't disagree with Wei Han. A similar scenario is now being played out in professional service organisations. FT Consultants are brought in to take up leadership roles and as they become entrenched in the company, they start to hire \"cheaper\" FT. They do not see it as wrong as to them they are hiring \"cheaper\" and SG is reputed to be open economy which means if FT and SC have same qualification, experience etc. then FT is hired if cheaper. Once inside then eventually because HR policies in place the FT becomes as expensive as SC but now FT is already entrenched.
It is a simple and logical way to behave and there is nothing wrong with it, since the SC is at fault for being more expensive in the beginning. FTs from China, India etc. are always cheaper to start with so why hire SCs, it makes no economic sense.
The SC graduate appears to assume they are entitled to a certain starting pay but why? They should accept a low starting pay and prove themselves 1st. Then from economic point of view SC will be hired 1st instead of FT.
SCs need not worry about fighting for jobs with FTs if they are prepared to start at low pay and work hard. There is no iron rice bowl for SC.
First, these FT managers tend to hire FTs of their own nationalities or races. Not because they are cheaper, but because they will be easier to work with as they will share the same culture.
And second, local graduates need to service education loans, give money to parents, save for future marriages, etc. They will definitely need higher starting pay as they will be spending most of their income in Singapore. This is in contrast to FTs who most likely will return to their countries once they acquire enough savings. For some graduates, accepting lower income below market rate may not be entirely practical.
There is no iron rice bowl nowadays. But I do think more can be done to give local graduates more equal footing to these FTs.[/quote]Sigh!! Yes I was indeed being SARCASTIC about FT consultants hiring FTs because they were cheaper.
I have seen first hand how the FTs have come in and slowly but surely changed the proportion of FTs and SCs and how the Govt. is either oblivious or too scared to intervene as then it would be seen to be interfering in the marketplace.
Look at how the various foreign chambers of commerce have so quickly come together to clamour against the White Paper saying it discriminates against FTs!!
It seems ironical that as SCs grumble and rant that the White Paper is not favorable to SCs the foreign chambers are also claiming that the White Paper is against FTs.
I have already previously posted in another thread or this thread, I am not sure, that SG continues to be an attractive place for FTs compared to the rest of ASEAN and for good reason. The other countries in ASEAN can survive and thrive WITHOUT FTs simply because of their population size or natural resources.
It is not so simple that if SG tightens the FT situation that these FTs can run elsewhere in ASEAN, they CANNOT. SG has a unique position and frankly I do not think the politicians in the other ASEAN countries want to or would care face their own electorate and answer why all the plum high-paying jobs are going to FTs when their own graduate countrymen cannot find suitable jobs.
U just have to look at M'sia, Indonesia, Philippines to see many hundreds of thousands of unemployed graduates. FTs certainly are not making a beeline for Brunei, Myanmar, Cambodia or Laos. Both Vietnam and Thailand also have large homogenous populations to employ so FTs are not necessary but can be tolerated in small numbers.
So within ASEAN the only place to find work and RAISE a family safely is SG. I cannot say beyond ASEAN to Taiwan, Korea, Japan as FTs have been going there long before they started coming to SG.
As for China and India, these are the places producing the FTs and the numbers are only increasing! Certainly both these economies cannot find enough jobs for their FTs and want them to go out to release the pressure and actually the Govts of India and China probably hope that these FTs can do what they have been doing in SG, which is to come in and create the environment for even more Indian and Chinese FTs to come into the host country. And it appears this has succeeded in SG todate.
Let me ask the question, would the FT prefer to raise his family in SG or in Laos, Cambodia or Brunei (the 3 other smallest countries in ASEAN)?
I think the Govt. has to recognize and be bold enough to take remedial steps to ensure that FTs are here to support SCs and not to boss over them. The FTs bring their talent with them so as to pass on the skills to the next generation of SCs. You may still need middle-management FTs because SG does not have enough but certainly there are enough bright SCs to manage SG-based foreign MNCs in addition to the local SMEs. And as more SCs become better trained through interactions with FT these SCs can in turn go on to manage companies outside SG and pave the way for bright SCs to go out of SG. That should be the way. The FTs supplement middle management and groom upper management.
Well that is how it should be in theory!
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