Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?
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WeiHan:
Define \"traditional\". Why are you so sad over something that you may not even fully grasped? I have already defined some other value system (humanistic value system) that have guided many countries policies making.
:yikes:dorisp:
[quote=\"WeiHan\"]What is wrong with a more liberal attitude towards sex?
What is so good about traditional family values for us to cling to it?
Are countries with more permissive sex attitude really worse than us in a broad spectrum of measures?
I say, there is no concrete proofs that a victorian sex attitude leads to stronger society so why the need to cling to it?
Ok I must be terribly outdated..... :sad:
It is not as bad and lawless as many of you make it out to be, you know?[/quote]Tell me which countries base their policies on humanist principles? And how many of those so-called 'humanist' principles are based on traditional religious principles on how people relate to each other? -
cimman:
Crafting of national policies is not something to be taken lightly. There must be evidence that thorough thought process has taken place to anticipate and prepare for possible outcomes.sunflower:
Actually, I do see some flaws in the WP’s proposals while scanning through. Not going to say anything at this point of time, until I see more concrete plans and implementation strategies.
actually, the implementation strategy is where things normally fall apart. The strategic direction is alright, but flops when it comes to implementation. One can't really predict a good successful implementation strategy, however, with a good feedback system and a pro active approach, the initial strategy can be fine tuned to make the strategic direction a practical reality.
One very simple example of where strategy and practical reality diverge. In, let's say a forum which deals in primary school education, :evil: , the forum has multiple threads for Science, Maths, English, Chinese (strategy). People are supposed to post questions in the relevant forum threads. You will find people posting Maths questions in Science forum, etc... :slapshead: Without a good checks and balance system, the initial direction will fall apart.
I understand where you are coming from and agree that it’s usually at the implementation stage that things fall apart. Maybe I should use the words \"strategic directions\" instead to be more accurate. My point is that for a proposal to sound convincing, there must be concrete plans, at least an outline of strategies before we are sure something will work, that foreseeable problems have been considered and accounted for.
Having something solid will also help tremendously in answering questions from the other party during parliamentary debate.
:idea: Or is it WP’s role to just propose and convince PAP to accept the proposal, and expect government to later come out with concrete plans and strategies for implementation? Then after that “check” that it’s properly done? :scratchhead:
To be fair, there’s little time for WP to come out with detailed proposals. It took one year for PAP to produce the white paper, but WP only have a few days to come out with something.
What I’m thinking is perhaps WP could scrutinize the white paper, try to find loopholes and all possible ill effects as a result of implementing the policy, or possible scenarios that may work AGAINST the success of the projected outcomes. All these, of course, need to be supported by strong arguments and well-researched documentations/evidences of past experience from our country or others. Bombard with questions and problems that are foreseeable to arise, examine the points and texts from the white paper and think critically, ask why this or that approach instead are not taken, rather than come out with something that they do not have time to fully prepare and let the other party “tekan” them. -
:? Why are we just focusing on the 40% singles? I’ve mentioned about the other 60% in a previous post (appended below) and I think something could be done to help this group to keep these babies if the pregnancies are normal and healthy.
There’s definitely stigma attached to single parents, and it’ll not be easily removed in our predominantly Asian culture. What I can think of to try to reduce stigma is perhaps something along the lines of people with HIV.
I saw some advertisements on TV last year to encourage people not to shun or blame, but to accept people with HIV. There’s also some kind of support group for them. Whether the measures taken are enough or successful we do not know, but at least it’s a start.
Now, having these initiatives do NOT mean we endorse or encourage unprotected and irresponsible sexual behaviours. Just like people with HIV, the message is clear (from confessions of HIV patients), that such acts are unacceptable and there’s always a sense of regret.
However, for both cases, things have already happened, so as a society, what can we do to help them go through the difficult times, instead of taking the easy way out of going for abortion?sunflower:
From the statistics, it is implied that 40% of those aborted babies were produced out of wedlock. For these singles, there exists a stigma where effort must be made (from government initiatives and society) to reduce or remove.
For the other 60%, some babies may be aborted because of medical conditions, and some maybe because parents only planned for certain number of children, or some may think they are unable to cope financially. There are many reasons for the decision to abort. Out of this 60%, those with normal healthy pregnancies should be encouraged to keep the babies.
In fact, I think there should be more details on how they are going to take this forward. Anyway, with the rising infertility rate, there seems to be a trend for couples to adopt. -
JannettLee:
I’m a little worried. Just hope that directives are communicated downwards clearly and not too dogmatically, and that civil servants have the sense to ask questions and not blindly follow instructions just to fulfill KPIs.Parliament endorses population White Paper by 77 votes to 13. some PAP MPs talked so much but still vote to support! Can they vote against in the very first place?
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/pm-lee-makes-passionate-appeal-for-population-white-paper-in-parliament-082910512.html
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I hope there’ll be a review of the white paper some 5 years down the road to evaluate the relevance of the policy and to determine at what point we have reached so far, to assess, adjust and make amendments if necessary.
One thing for sure, our economy will boom for the coming years ahead. -
3Boys:
So much for your cheekiness...
Well, my DW and I are prudish, and we ain't extinct. My parents are prudes, married for 45 years, and they had 3 children.WeiHan:
In fact, there are more fundamental values to adhere too. For me, Compassion will be one of them. Wathever one does should not harm another being. According to my definition, consensual adult sex (involving adults that are not already someone else spouse), outside of marriage, is acceptable.
Outside traditional values doesn't mean that there is no values. It is a different set of values. Many of the policies of those more permissive societies that you mentioned above is based on more modern humanistic value system instead of one that is prudish that many people here cherish even in the expense of becoming extinct.
So much for your theory.
We all know where the argument came from. We were talking about why penalise family outside of definition of traditional family so much so that many have chosen the abortion path. Those extra babies would have at least slowed down native Singaporean population decrease (extinction)...now you get what I meant? Prudish meaning penalising non-traditional family structure in the name of protecting traditional family values. -
3Boys:
You can easily google. Basically, a heavy weightage of the EU constitution is based on secular humanistic values and reasoning.
Tell me which countries base their policies on humanist principles? And how many of those so-called 'humanist' principles are based on traditional religious principles on how people relate to each other?
http://europa.eu/scadplus/constitution/objectives_en.htm
In fact, it does not include a reference to God nor to christian values in its Preamble.
http://ojls.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/4/739.extract
People may wonder why...but it is concepts such as fundamental freedom and nondiscrimination that leads to thing such as legalisation of gay marriage etc...France has just voted overwhelmingly in favor of gay marriage, likewise for Great Britain etc...
As for abortion that you have brought up earlier...I am somewhat not in favor of abortion because i believe it is an innocent life taken. However, we should consider the case that the woman involved could have been raped and she should have the right to decide for herself because it is her body. another case can also be argued based on the woman's health to continue the pregnancy.
I believe the above outcomes all have their root in secular humanistic values. Religion has generally opposed abortion and gay marriage. -
WeiHan:
What is so good about traditional family values for us to cling to it?WeiHan:
Who and how were family outside of definition of traditional family penalised so much so that many have chosen the abortion path?
We all know where the argument came from. We were talking about why penalise family outside of definition of traditional family so much so that many have chosen the abortion path. Those extra babies would have at least slowed down native Singaporean population decrease (extinction)...now you get what I meant? Prudish meaning penalising non-traditional family structure in the name of protecting traditional family values.
:?
Personally I don't encourage but neither would I \"penalise\" them. :roll: -
WeiHan:
So much for your cheekiness...
Well, my DW and I are prudish, and we ain't extinct. My parents are prudes, married for 45 years, and they had 3 children.3Boys:
[quote=\"WeiHan\"]
In fact, there are more fundamental values to adhere too. For me, Compassion will be one of them. Wathever one does should not harm another being. According to my definition, consensual adult sex (involving adults that are not already someone else spouse), outside of marriage, is acceptable.
Outside traditional values doesn't mean that there is no values. It is a different set of values. Many of the policies of those more permissive societies that you mentioned above is based on more modern humanistic value system instead of one that is prudish that many people here cherish even in the expense of becoming extinct.
So much for your theory.
We all know where the argument came from. We were talking about why penalise family outside of definition of traditional family so much so that many have chosen the abortion path. Those extra babies would have at least slowed down native Singaporean population decrease (extinction)...now you get what I meant? Prudish meaning penalising non-traditional family structure in the name of protecting traditional family values.[/quote]So you accept that sexual conservatism is a valid world view and does not imply a declining population then? You accept that traditional family values is not in opposition to procreation and a valid and proven structure for raising well adjusted and high functioning children?
Then don't try so hard to tear down what you don't understand. -
3Boys:
Because it's such a shamelessly inane piece of writing from the WP, which basically abuses their supporters and treats them (and others) like morons.concern2:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
It's such an obvious piece of propaganda and you are falling for it?
I can also say 'Strong economic growth is in the best interest of Singaporeans'.
How, you believe me or not?
I don't get it. Why are we scrutinizing on WP's proposal? Is the White Paper very convincing? I find WP is over-doing. They don't have to propose, do they?
Yup, that's the beauty of being in the small minority opposition, you can propose something completely outrageous, safe in the knowledge that it will never get implemented, and yet people will go :goodpost: :goodpost: .....[/quote]You must be celebrating the passing of the White Paper. Sorry, won't be around to celebrate with you.
Is the protest still on? -
I don’t think the argument that only a traditional family structure is the only structure to produce well adjusted high functioning children is necessarily correct.
The non-traditional family structure has only recently taken root and is still small in number. There does not appear to have been any large scale study done of children raised by same sex couples or unwed couples to determine if children raised in such non-traditional structures are disadvantaged.
Nevertheless the instinctive gut reaction of traditionalists is that such non-traditional structures are damaging to the children when they see other families with a father and mother as a married couple.
I am not so sure that such a view of the child being damaged is necessarily true as the children of today are exposed peers and close friends who are from families with a single parent, or families with parents who have remarried and therefore one parent is a step-parent, (such families already are non-traditional).
So although it appears like a sound argument based on what has happened in the past that the traditional structure is the best to raise a child, it may not necessarily be the only structure.
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