Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?
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3Boys:
You can easily google. Basically, a heavy weightage of the EU constitution is based on secular humanistic values and reasoning.
Tell me which countries base their policies on humanist principles? And how many of those so-called 'humanist' principles are based on traditional religious principles on how people relate to each other?
http://europa.eu/scadplus/constitution/objectives_en.htm
In fact, it does not include a reference to God nor to christian values in its Preamble.
http://ojls.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/4/739.extract
People may wonder why...but it is concepts such as fundamental freedom and nondiscrimination that leads to thing such as legalisation of gay marriage etc...France has just voted overwhelmingly in favor of gay marriage, likewise for Great Britain etc...
As for abortion that you have brought up earlier...I am somewhat not in favor of abortion because i believe it is an innocent life taken. However, we should consider the case that the woman involved could have been raped and she should have the right to decide for herself because it is her body. another case can also be argued based on the woman's health to continue the pregnancy.
I believe the above outcomes all have their root in secular humanistic values. Religion has generally opposed abortion and gay marriage. -
WeiHan:
What is so good about traditional family values for us to cling to it?WeiHan:
Who and how were family outside of definition of traditional family penalised so much so that many have chosen the abortion path?
We all know where the argument came from. We were talking about why penalise family outside of definition of traditional family so much so that many have chosen the abortion path. Those extra babies would have at least slowed down native Singaporean population decrease (extinction)...now you get what I meant? Prudish meaning penalising non-traditional family structure in the name of protecting traditional family values.
:?
Personally I don't encourage but neither would I \"penalise\" them. :roll: -
WeiHan:
So much for your cheekiness...
Well, my DW and I are prudish, and we ain't extinct. My parents are prudes, married for 45 years, and they had 3 children.3Boys:
[quote=\"WeiHan\"]
In fact, there are more fundamental values to adhere too. For me, Compassion will be one of them. Wathever one does should not harm another being. According to my definition, consensual adult sex (involving adults that are not already someone else spouse), outside of marriage, is acceptable.
Outside traditional values doesn't mean that there is no values. It is a different set of values. Many of the policies of those more permissive societies that you mentioned above is based on more modern humanistic value system instead of one that is prudish that many people here cherish even in the expense of becoming extinct.
So much for your theory.
We all know where the argument came from. We were talking about why penalise family outside of definition of traditional family so much so that many have chosen the abortion path. Those extra babies would have at least slowed down native Singaporean population decrease (extinction)...now you get what I meant? Prudish meaning penalising non-traditional family structure in the name of protecting traditional family values.[/quote]So you accept that sexual conservatism is a valid world view and does not imply a declining population then? You accept that traditional family values is not in opposition to procreation and a valid and proven structure for raising well adjusted and high functioning children?
Then don't try so hard to tear down what you don't understand. -
3Boys:
Because it's such a shamelessly inane piece of writing from the WP, which basically abuses their supporters and treats them (and others) like morons.concern2:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
It's such an obvious piece of propaganda and you are falling for it?
I can also say 'Strong economic growth is in the best interest of Singaporeans'.
How, you believe me or not?
I don't get it. Why are we scrutinizing on WP's proposal? Is the White Paper very convincing? I find WP is over-doing. They don't have to propose, do they?
Yup, that's the beauty of being in the small minority opposition, you can propose something completely outrageous, safe in the knowledge that it will never get implemented, and yet people will go :goodpost: :goodpost: .....[/quote]You must be celebrating the passing of the White Paper. Sorry, won't be around to celebrate with you.
Is the protest still on? -
I don’t think the argument that only a traditional family structure is the only structure to produce well adjusted high functioning children is necessarily correct.
The non-traditional family structure has only recently taken root and is still small in number. There does not appear to have been any large scale study done of children raised by same sex couples or unwed couples to determine if children raised in such non-traditional structures are disadvantaged.
Nevertheless the instinctive gut reaction of traditionalists is that such non-traditional structures are damaging to the children when they see other families with a father and mother as a married couple.
I am not so sure that such a view of the child being damaged is necessarily true as the children of today are exposed peers and close friends who are from families with a single parent, or families with parents who have remarried and therefore one parent is a step-parent, (such families already are non-traditional).
So although it appears like a sound argument based on what has happened in the past that the traditional structure is the best to raise a child, it may not necessarily be the only structure. -
I have to acknowledge that the Govt. took a very bold step to put before the public a view of 2030 which now has many Singaporeans concerned. What the Govt. did was right although the delivery of the message could have been better done as irrational fear seems to have hijacked some aspects of the White Paper. Also the speed at which the White Paper was released and debated left little time for the people and the Opposition to digest and suggest viable alternatives or at least measures to mitigate or avoid the dangerous scenario that the White Paper had presented.
That the debate took on an emotive tone was not surprising and actually welcomed as it showed that we Singaporeans were not just concerned about GDP growth or the 5Cs etc. but placed great value on a Singaporean core that would be able to have a good quality of life whilst at the same time acknowledging the need for FTs to help us sustain that good quality of life.
I think and hope that the White Paper has shaken the lethargy out of a larger number of Singaporeans. We must realize that our future is not certain and not just because of what happens outside Singapore that we cannot control but because of what happens WITHIN Singapore that we have some control over.
The Govt. has tried various measures in the past to address the TFR and frankly has failed because of the reality of what Singapore is and how we as Singaporeans have become conditioned to our unique Singaporean way of life.
BUT that has to now change.Singaporeans have been told in no uncertain terms by the White Paper that we are shrinking and will continue to shrink as a people. That we Singaporeans have to deal with this NOW before the decline in the Singaporean population becomes irreversible. We do not have much time. 17 years to 2030 is not far away.
I think the WP concentrating only on having to cut FT numbers and bringing more non-working Singaporeans back into the workforce was completely and absolutely wrong. The Govt. sticking to the same failed Baby Bonus policy was completely and absolutely wrong.
To put it bluntly we need more Ah Boys and Ah Girls. That is the bottomline. The policies have to be built around this objective and if it means a slower growth rate to restructure the economy to achieve this, then so be it. We do not need a Swiss standard of living. I am sure we are happy with our own standard of living if we can own our own home, give a fair chance to every Singaporean child to succeed in Singapore regardless of race, language or religion and that when every Singaporean child grows up and grows old, it is to have and enjoy a good quality of life in this life’s journey. -
Just realized that PAP MPs can’t vote against his/her own party if the Whip is not lifted by PM!
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Survey said Cost of living was No.1 factor for Punggol East vote swing
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/cost-of-living-was-no-1-factor-for-punggol-east-vote-swing--survey-181457181.html
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Nearly 4 in 10 voters who cast their ballot at the recent Punggol East by-election said the cost of living was the top reason that determined their choice, says a new survey.
Conducted by independent local agency Blackbox Research, the survey also found the second most important reason for vote swing was attributed to “the government not listening to ordinary Singaporeans”.
Some 21 per cent swing voters aged under 40 identified this as the top factor in deciding their vote.
Workers’ Party candidate Lee Li Lian won the recent by-election by a landslide 54.5 per cent of the vote, beating her opponent Koh Poh Koon from the ruling People’s Action Party by a 10.8 per cent margin.
Lee’s vote increased by some 13 per cent from the 2011 general elections, when she previously contested in the same ward, losing out to PAP's candidate then, Michael Palmer.
Conducted over a three-day period last week, the phone survey interviewed 150 Punggol East residents who said they had switched votes in between the recent by-election and the 2011 General Election.
Commenting on the findings, Blackbox managing director David Black said, “It’s clear that younger voters in Punggol East felt emboldened and don’t believe they will lose out by opting against the status quo\".
\"As the Chinese saying goes, ‘their wings have hardened’ and if this phenomenon is repeated elsewhere, it could represent a real challenge for the Government in the run-up to the next General Election,\" he said.
Punggol East is largely made up of a young, middle-class electorate. Approximately 1 in 4 Punggol East residents are aged between 22 to 35.
No disadvantage in having opposition MP: survey
Other key reasons for the vote swing included housing affordability and public transport issues.
While education and childcare were important factors for voters aged under 40, a “stronger opposition presence in Parliament” was an important factor for women – four times a more likely reason than that of men.
Young voters were also far more receptive to having an opposition member of Parliament represent their ward.
73 per cent of voters under 40 felt so, as opposed to 48 per cent of voters above 40.
When the survey measured the impact of the by-election’s catalyst as a vote changer, results showed that Michael Palmer’s resignation as a factor only accounted for 1 per cent of the vote swing. -
JannettLee:
Just realized that PAP MPs can't vote against his/her own party if the Whip is not lifted by PM!
Why would this be relevant? The White Paper is the Govt. position on the challenges faced by Singapore and how the Govt. intends to tackle it. How can a PAP MP vote against how the Govt intends to govern? That is not logical as then if that is the case then the MP has to resign from the PAP. -
Just relax:
Just realized that to vote no just be absent. Perhaps the White Paper is not the position of all MPs. See the relevance?JannettLee:
Just realized that PAP MPs can't vote against his/her own party if the Whip is not lifted by PM!
Why would this be relevant? The White Paper is the Govt. position on the challenges faced by Singapore and how the Govt. intends to tackle it. How can a PAP MP vote against how the Govt intends to govern? That is not logical as then if that is the case then the MP has to resign from the PAP.
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