Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?
-
WeiHan:
And would 3% be acceptable to you? 3% is fine with me. But don;t tell me we can't defend Singapore and therefore we give up.
And I suspect with more efficiency in man power planning alone, we maybe able to cut spending in defence from 4% to 3% of GDP. That is still higher than countries such as South Korea that are in war zones with constant threat all the time. There is no need to use stones and arrows at all.toddles:
Kee chiew! I am weighing in agst egregious notions! Our beloved nation is definitely defensible, by many men who do truly believe in staying and doing so.
I have no beef with spending on the best technology that money can buy. But there is much slack that can be tightened up, not least with the sheer waste of manpower resources. Ask any male. Esp those on ICT. -
rains:
This is again an issue of losing touch with the ground. With scholars officers that promote quickly to the top, it is not all surprising. They sit inside planning room, look at the type of weapons that we have, work out some strategies for different scenarios and then conclude theoretically that Singapore is defensible in these situations.
Really? Me thinks the army really has some work to do to educate or convince their own men in believing so.
I must have been talking to the minority tho. Just about every of these men who has dutifully served his NS and reservist tells me he will be the first to run away if there ever is a war because Singapore army is no fight to anybody, and NS and reservist are a complete waste of his time, and sometimes money if he is a self-employed.
I asked them,\"If even people like you, who are trained and prepared for war, run away? What hope is there for people like us?\"
They are such an embarrassment to the army aren't they?
Then...I want to ask, how come we can't even catch one Mas Selamak? -
3Boys:
And my question to you is why even bother with 1 year of NS if we are not willing to spend and invest in enough equipment and infrastructure to put up a credible defence? Tell me, what is your 'minimum'? Is it 0.5% of GDP? 1%, 2%, 3%? G'ment spends 3.6% of GDP on defence in 2012, that too much for you?[/quote]Very simple analogy here, If other is using Motorola HP, we are using i-phone 4. Why need to spend money on upgrading to i-phone 5 or Samsung note 2 when i-phone 4 is already way better off than Motorola HP.
If you refer 'someone' is me. I can tell you I have never changed my opinion but rather you have tendency to read the first sentence and the form your own opinion (without finishing the whole passage) and then treat your formed opinion as my opinion. If you go back to my old postings back (a few posting before this one). I can tell you that I have been saying cutting NS duration to 1 year since yesterday. I had kept saying I 'm NOT asking to abolish the defence but asking to cut the defence cost to minimum. My mistake was I didn't elaborate more about what I meant by to the minimum (and you also jumped to abolishing the defence by the way!).JannettLee:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
Thanks!
Agree that there his some slack and inefficiencies in the NS system, and we can definitely do better. Shortening NS is a possible step. I have 3 boys, that would be great news to me!
But that's not to say we trim the budget to a minimum or that Singapore is not defensible, is it?
Someone is shifting positions again (not you toddles), better stop before I get accused of putting words in mouths.
-
Please see below what you said: \"Right now, there is no one in the region that can come in and beat us, NO ONE.\". Because of what you said, I am asking you that since China & Russia is considered in Asia region of which Singapore is in, you are saying China & Russia can't beat us? I believe you statement is not correct & breeds arrogant & contentment since this is far from the truth.
Now that you say below \"Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US\", so you admit your previous statement about no one can beat Singapore in army is wrong? Is this why you appear so hostile in your reply to me?3Boys:
The point of NS is that we are serious about defence and we fight to win. Right now, there is no one in the region that can come in and beat us, NO ONE.
Please quit embarrassing yourself.3Boys:
We all know? Who is we?Moonsun55:
No country in the region? why you talk of region like China, Russia not in Asia region? Furthermore, If any country want to invade, they can come from anywhere. We all know the singapore's military is wayang, it can never stop a big powerful country from taking it down, & that is a fact that even if Singapore spend >20% of GDP on defense, it will not make much difference. I rather we minimize defense budget to focus on efficiency & transfer this money to healthcare in view of aging population needs.
[quote=\"3Boys\"]I must say I feel a little disappointed that not more people weighed in against the ridiculous notion that our island is not defensible.
Having dutifully served NS and ICTs over the years, and having held some positions of responsibility in that time, I have no doubt that there is no country in the region that can mount a successful invasion of Singapore, and it is down to the professionalism and strength of our armed forces, not the presence of foreigners. If you are not familiar, here is a good book to read.
http://www.questia.com/library/98854885/defending-the-lion-city-the-armed-forces-of-singapore
Anyone familiar with our history, will realize that our present state of economic development, international standing, and indeed, independence, owes a whole lot to the strength of the SAF.
To have an uninformed individual come in and make the preposterous statement that we owe our peace to the presence of foreigners, on Feb 15th no less, is singularly OFFENSIVE!
No one who knows or values our soldiers, our independence, should grant this notion any quarter whatsoever. Rather than standing on the sidelines and chomping popcorn, it'd be nice if there were more than a few would speak up here to disabuse the uninformed of such an egregious notion, forcefully.
I suggest you speak for yourself.
Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US. In any case, of the 3, only the Us at this time has any ability to project forces so far, should they choose to do so. So your example is just a big red Herring.
So we scale our forces to deal with the proximate and realistic threats, we don't roll over an play dead.[/quote] -
Keeping defense budget to the minimum means building a stone wall around the circumference of the island and putting a few guns on sentosa! Anyway it is pointless to defense against nuclear weapon…heck…let’s keep the money and forget the wall too…
-
Moonsun55:
[/quote]\"In the region\" = SEA (South East Asia)Please see below what you said: \"Right now, there is no one in the region that can come in and beat us, NO ONE.\". Because of what you said, I am asking you that since China & Russia is considered in Asia region of which Singapore is in, you are saying China & Russia can't beat us? I believe you statement is not correct & breeds arrogant & contentment since this is far from the truth.
We all know? Who is we?
Now that you say below \"Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US\", so you admit your previous statement about no one can beat Singapore in army is wrong? Is this why you appear so hostile in your reply to me?3Boys:
[quote=\"Moonsun55\"]No country in the region? why you talk of region like China, Russia not in Asia region? Furthermore, If any country want to invade, they can come from anywhere. We all know the singapore's military is wayang, it can never stop a big powerful country from taking it down, & that is a fact that even if Singapore spend >20% of GDP on defense, it will not make much difference. I rather we minimize defense budget to focus on efficiency & transfer this money to healthcare in view of aging population needs.
I suggest you speak for yourself.
Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US. In any case, of the 3, only the Us at this time has any ability to project forces so far, should they choose to do so. So your example is just a big red Herring.
So we scale our forces to deal with the proximate and realistic threats, we don't roll over an play dead.
I am sure you are wise enough to know who should SG defend itself from, right?
Russia, China and USA are not interested to put their military threat here lah. Can even safely say Korea and Japan are not interested too.
(Burp! Shang Palace's YuShen indigestion! excuse moi...) -
Iluvmygals:
Keeping defense budget to the minimum means building a stone wall around the circumference of the island and putting a few guns on sentosa! Anyway it is pointless to defense against nuclear weapon.....heck....let's keep the money and forget the wall too....
Sigh! Why everyone keeps on thinking of fighting a war! it should be the last think we want it to be! Enhance our foreign affair policies and get more strong alliance. Work on the principle of 'We will never have a war!'.
Our defence should be just for telling people we have defence and deterring the war should we caught by surprise with embezzling from others. Hopefully, we have sufficient time to get help from our alliances. -
JannettLee:
We all know? Who is we?3Boys:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]I must say I feel a little disappointed that not more people weighed in against the ridiculous notion that our island is not defensible.
Having dutifully served NS and ICTs over the years, and having held some positions of responsibility in that time, I have no doubt that there is no country in the region that can mount a successful invasion of Singapore, and it is down to the professionalism and strength of our armed forces, not the presence of foreigners. If you are not familiar, here is a good book to read.
http://www.questia.com/library/98854885/defending-the-lion-city-the-armed-forces-of-singapore
Anyone familiar with our history, will realize that our present state of economic development, international standing, and indeed, independence, owes a whole lot to the strength of the SAF.
To have an uninformed individual come in and make the preposterous statement that we owe our peace to the presence of foreigners, on Feb 15th no less, is singularly OFFENSIVE!
No one who knows or values our soldiers, our independence, should grant this notion any quarter whatsoever. Rather than standing on the sidelines and chomping popcorn, it'd be nice if there were more than a few would speak up here to disabuse the uninformed of such an egregious notion, forcefully.
I suggest you speak for yourself.
Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US. In any case, of the 3, only the Us at this time has any ability to project forces so far, should they choose to do so. So your example is just a big red Herring.
So we scale our forces to deal with the proximate and realistic threats, we don't roll over an play dead.[/quote]I learnt new thing today! I didn't know that we can defense Nuclear Weapon from Russia and China. :yikes: I always thought that they don't even need to come out 一兵一卒can already 轻而易举拿下 those countries which do not have any nuclear weapon. They have Nuclear Weapon but still are not considered to have ability to have project forces ? :skeptical:[/quote]
By your logic, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea should also give up and also spend minimum on defence. If intercontinental missile capability were the only criteria to become an enemy, then the UK and France are also our enemies.
Your reasoning has no logic whatsoever. Worse, it reveals utter ignorance about how the big powers use nuclear arms. Despite testy relationships and shootouts between the Japanese and Chinese navies/merchant marine, China has never waved the nuclear card at Japan.
Russia and the USA are not the threats to Singapore security, not in the direct military way. China may be an issue in the future around the South China Sea, and that will be a naval issue, not a nuclear one. Your example is typically uninformed and a classic example of a straw man argument.
One scales one's defence to deal with the proximate and realistic threats. Japan would scale it's defence to deal with threats from N.Korea and China, Brazil would not. Sudan would be concerned about Eqypt and Libya, not Iceland or Indonesia.
Singapore is vulnerable by dint of it's small size. We can be (and have been) bullied before by our neighbours. In the period immediately after separation from Malaysia, you did not think that the Malaysians tried several times t bring us to our knees via threats to airspace and water supplies? Have you forgotten the confrontation?
Therefore, we need a defence force commensurate with our strategic needs.
1) Defend our homeland
2) Protect our interests (waterways, airspace, resource supply)
Defence as a deterrent. We may not be able to win every fight with every opponent, but we have to calibrate our defence to deal with the realistic threats. China and Russia have no interest in invading Singapore, they are too far away and they don't have the means to mount such an attack. It also serves nothing for them to drop a nuclear bomb on us. For what? So those are threats we can discount.
Then we come close to home. Indonesia and Malaysia are friendly to us today, BUT, it is a friendship forged by STRENGTH. They did not always treat us as friends. Hence, because of our small size and vulnerability, a strong defence force is ESSENTIAL for parity of relationship with our neighbours. NEVER forget that!
And our defence forces today, are more than capable of winning a short conflict with our immediate regional neighbours. I have never claimed anything more than that I never said we can beat China in a straight military fight, there are maybe 7-10 nations in the world who have a chance in doing that. But China and Russia are not the threat. Just because we can't beat them does not mean we lie on our backs, open up and let everyone else in.
In any case, I do not write to try and convince you, since you are fixed in your view, but other fair minded readers. I only hope to present what feel is a fair perspective and expose your posits as false and illogical.
Last, I do not argue that our armed forces are the most efficient in the use of resources. There is definitely wastage and inefficiencies, and finding ways to lower spending to shorten NS is a GOOD thing.
But not to minimum. -
Moonsun55:
First time I heard that Russia is considered regional power in the context of Singapore defence. Alright, so I make it more precise, region as in our immediate region, i.e SEA + Oceania + proximate parts of the Indian Ocean. Anyone with an understanding of how defence is discussed in the Singapore context would have understood that, but I guess you did not.Please see below what you said: \"Right now, there is no one in the region that can come in and beat us, NO ONE.\". Because of what you said, I am asking you that since China & Russia is considered in Asia region of which Singapore is in, you are saying China & Russia can't beat us? I believe you statement is not correct & breeds arrogant & contentment since this is far from the truth.
Now that you say below \"Nobody says we can fight China or Russia or the US\", so you admit your previous statement about no one can beat Singapore in army is wrong? Is this why you appear so hostile in your reply to me? -
I think no one wants to go to war…but no one should be unprepared for war. How much to spend on defence is not a straight forward answer. It can be any % of GDP and it is also meaningless to compare country to country cause each country circumstances is different…a country of our size will easily perish with one nuclear bomb…but then again no enemy would want to do that…they want to take control of the country not burn it to ground…
We need to show other countries that we are ready to put up a fight should anyone want to come harrass us…
I think what we are arguing here is not the amount to spend but the mentality that we give up the fight so easily…that we have no confidence that our army could protect us (to the best of their ability)…
Just because we have not been put to the test doesn’t mean we cannot put up a good show…let’s not give up on ourselves!!
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