mindays:

Moderators please set in. There is always this usual infamous bunch of people that lurks around a harmless thread, posting irrelevant materials or unhelpful posts. It will be very much appreciated if this thread can benefit genuinely interested parents, be it ex or prospective. I think justice has to be served for this college and we must not let this bunch of people continue practising their sorcery.

It's disconcerting to see the to-and-fro OT arguments flooding the various threads, drowning out useful sharing of information and putting off well-meaning parents from posting relevant pointers. It's high time to move all these irrelevant posts to Rants and keep the JC threads strictly for pertinent information sharing.

I find the ganging up on a particular forummer an horrendous act of cyber bullying. As mature adults, we should be good models and not act in such a manner. While some parents may think that they are defending EJC, what will prospective students think after reading all those posts? Are the EJC parents suffering from a crisis of low self esteem and showing a lack of confidence in the new school?

On the other hand, while one may be justifiably proud of NYJC's achievements (given its steady ascent over the years), there is no need to drum up dubious statistics or cast disparaging comments about other JCs just to boost NYJC's standing.

Moderators, I hope there will be greater vigilance in responding to requests to rein in unruly and unreasonable behavior which if left unchecked will result in KSP degenerating into another juvenile forum.

sushi88:

Justin_justin, gang fight in school would mean the school called the police to arrest the kids and it would also mean the school would immediately notify the parents for reporting to the police. The school being the one who reported has to have school staff going to the police station with the kids as their statement is required. I think this kind of case is different from a case suspected done outside the school at some other time. For the gang fight case, think all parents would be summoned to the police station immediately after that.


Accompanying parents/guardians automatically means interfering parents/guardians? I believe the rule of obstruction of investigation still applies if they are found to be doing so, No? Now I can see the thinking that just to avoid trouble of logistics, trouble of dealing with difficult parents, we should remove the rights of a dependant getting some support. At the same time you use \"embolden not to cooperate\" the flipside of \" intimidated to confess\" could also be a possibility as they are kids. Nothing is easy, we just have to deal with it...value-added work by human.

Your logic with regards to the example is baffling. From a parent's perspective, it does not matter who calls the Police, as ultimately, the Police will still go to the school to bring their children back for questioning.

Only a poor interviewer will resort to using violence. A trained interviewer will not use coercion to make a suspect speak as under such circumstances, the suspect is likely to come out with half-fabricated tales that he thinks the interviewer may want to hear. Better for the interviewer to show empathy for the subject's plight, find common emotional ground and just let him sing. Even for terrorists, it is better to show sensitivity about faith and draw them out of their hardened shells, more effective than torture. As you recognize, the scenario of interfering parents is the other extreme of Police intimidation. The latter is not likely as we are talking about the Singapore Police Force here and not the Gestapo.

By the way, for many cases, there is no need for a confession as the technical/forensic evidence is already enough to press charges. The suspect's statement is to allow him to tell his side of the story and to allow the investigators to know the whole truth.

There are operational reasons why Police do not wish to have their hands tied down unnecessarily when conducting investigations or effecting arrests. Imagine a scenario where a gang fight broke out in school, if the Police needs parents to accompany the children to Police Station, 7 out of 10 of these parents might think that since it’s not the first time their kids got into trouble, they could take their own sweet time to reach school, and the whole process would take a long time. Plus each school only has 1 or 2 counsellors and will public blame the limited number of counsellors for failing to take care of the whole group should any mishap happen subsequently?


At the other extremity, if schools are off limits for police arrest, will schools become safe haven for molesters, drug abusers, gangsters, ah long runners etc? Will parents sing a different tune when their children become victims of crime or violence in schools?

I can imagine the frustration the investigation officers face when these youths, emboldened by the presence of their parents, would not cooperate or the parents keep interfering in the interview process, asking their children to remain silent while speaking on their behalf.

Unless there are very clear benefits that outweigh the adverse impact, it may be prudent to stick with the status quo. After all, despite the more than 1,300 juvenile arrests annually, none end up in a suicide and admittedly, Benjamin Lim’s case is an outlier whose cause could be found elsewhere.

pirate:

Nebbermind:

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I thought they released the id and the pic of BL's bedroom to the media? No?

They are still in grief and not necessarily thinking straight. I would not hold it against them.

Very likely, the parents are having cold feet now. They wanted to lash out when venting their grief and anger but little did they expect the Minister to come out so strongly. What if the CI probes more deeply and more embarrassing facts are surfaced?

Going public with an open letter helped to publicize the case but by playing up the emotions and to insinuate that the Police caused the unfortunate suicide, Mr. Lim overplayed his hand. Now, Mr. Lim wants a cloak of privacy, likely this would be denied as now the interest of the public has been piqued, there is a need for the government to set the record straight. Otherwise, the public would think that Police and MOE have something to hide.

stetan:

Justice_justin:

It's an \"easy\" way out as the parents effectively shifted the cause of the death on the shoulders of the school and the Police. They avoided the tough task of self-reflection to see how they could have prevented the suicide and overcoming the grief to come to terms with the demise.

I think when one is in grief, one may not be able to think logically.

However, I do think that without further details of the case, it would be also premature to place the blame entirely on the parents.

I don't judge them. Their actions have tainted their good son's name. If not for their link up with TOC, the name of the boy and his photograph would still remain anonymous. Just hope that the Coroner's Inquiry would not uncover more dirt on the boy or his family.

stetan:

Justice_justin:

The parents could have grieved in privacy, sharing the bereavement with close family friends, treasuring memories of the good times and learning to come to terms with the tragic loss. They chose instead to bemoan the incident in public without realizing that years later, the name of the poor boy would forever be associated with that of a molester, an incident that would mar his good name in perpetuity. Easy way for the parents to give vent to their own sense of loss but at the expense of their deceased son.

Why would that be \"an easy way out\"? It's never easy for a parent to loose their child.....

It's an \"easy\" way out as the parents effectively shifted the cause of the death on the shoulders of the school and the Police. They avoided the tough task of self-reflection to see how they could have prevented the suicide and overcoming the grief to come to terms with the demise.

stetan:

Justice_justin:

The truth will be made known during the Coroner's Inquiry. In any case, the poor boy was not persecuted by Police to death, he chose to take this way out for reasons still unknown to us. While the parents had taken the easy way by placing the blame squarely on the school and Police, from an objective perspective, should the parents not be held responsible for the way their son turned out? In the last few minutes of his life, what exactly did the mother say to him? In the heated moment, did the mother say something that triggered his suicidal instincts?

Juvenile investigations are nothing new, and yet among the scores of cases investigated by Police annually, how many ended up in suicide? This incident is tragic and rare but without knowing the full facts, speculating about what the school and Police should do and not do is not helpful.

Agreed with what you said. I guess the speculations arose because the facts are not readily available. I agree with Chief that the sooner these facts are made available, the better it is for the entire situation.

As a sidenote, don't you think you are being judgmental by saying \"the parents took the easy way out\"

The parents could have grieved in privacy, sharing the bereavement with close family friends, treasuring memories of the good times and learning to come to terms with the tragic loss. They chose instead to bemoan the incident in public without realizing that years later, the name of the poor boy would forever be associated with that of a molester, an incident that would mar his good name in perpetuity. Easy way for the parents to give vent to their own sense of loss but at the expense of their deceased son.

stetan:

Justice_justin:

There was no assumption of guilt as the boy was only being interviewed to assist in the investigations. After the interview, however, there was prima facie evidence for him to be charged and subsequently released on bail to his mother.

I am not disputing that the boy may have done something wrong.

Even when charged, you do still get a chance for defence in court. You are still innocent until proven guilty, no ?

The truth will be made known during the Coroner's Inquiry. In any case, the poor boy was not persecuted by Police to death, he chose to take this way out for reasons still unknown to us. While the parents had taken the easy way by placing the blame squarely on the school and Police, from an objective perspective, should the parents not be held responsible for the way their son turned out? In the last few minutes of his life, what exactly did the mother say to him? In the heated moment, did the mother say something that triggered his suicidal instincts?
Juvenile investigations are nothing new, and yet among the scores of cases investigated by Police annually, how many ended up in suicide? This incident is tragic and rare but without knowing the full facts, speculating about what the school and Police should do and not do is not helpful.

stetan:

Justice_justin:

The sympathies are now with the deceased boy but let us imagin a situation where the molest victim had committed suicide instead. Would forummers still sympathize with the alleged molestor?

Don't think anybody here mentioned that their sympathies are not with the molest victim.
Sympathies are with both.

I thought I remember in Singapore, you are innocent until proven guilty. or has this changed ?

There was no assumption of guilt as the boy was only being interviewed to assist in the investigations. After the interview, however, there was prima facie evidence for him to be charged and subsequently released on bail to his mother.

Talking about legal rights of persons under investigation, one can refer to the following webpage:


http://www.lawsociety.org.sg/forPublic/ ... onYou.aspx

The boy was released to the Singapore Police Force, the same Police Force who goes round schools spreading the message of safety and security as part of the community policing efforts, the same Police Force to whom children have been asked to turn to when they are lost or require assistance. They are not ogres or the Gestapo so why should any principal worry when his student is being led away by Police?

During the interview process, the boy could well be offered drinks but more likely than not, he would not feel thirsty or hungry when the adrenaline is pumping through his body. After all, a Police interview is not known as \"lim kopi\" for nothing.

The sympathies are now with the deceased boy but let us imagin a situation where the molest victim had committed suicide instead. Would forummers still sympathize with the alleged molestor?