Q&A - P3 Math

[2ppaamm]

Hi Coffeecat,

this is the generalization: a fraction divided by another fraction always gives a bigger fraction.

This statement cannot be true. Too general. I believe jesschan’s kid was confused by the teacher, but I would be confused too, in a different way. Who’s to tell who is receiving this message. Unless, as I mentioned before, ask the teacher to define ‘fraction’ first.

[2ppaamm]

CoffeeCat:

hmm, i don't understand why the adults were angry, unless they were stumped. However your son's story sounds like how those curious minds are harmed by the rigid educational system.

They were angry because my son's answer was marked wrong, and he lost 5 marks. But he took so long to resolve this: own teacher, marker, HOD, VP, Principal. I finally took over. By then, results was already submitted to MOE. To the school, he has to be wrong. But when I proved to them time and again that they marked it wrong, even found errors in marking in another child's paper (because I wanted to see what is the 'right' answer to them) - same question. They were furious with me.

My son later told me never to fight for him again for Maths question. Well, he went on and topped the school for P6 prelim Maths in the school scoring 99.5%. Why wouldn't they be angry. I was told I was not the expert and should not challenge them.

Well, since then, I've not bothered to challenge any marking. Don't even bother to solve primary maths questions. Good lesson learnt.

[Muffins]

2ppaamm:

My kids were definitely confused.


Tell you another one. Is there such a thing as a fraction of ratios?
That means the numerator is a ratio, the denominator is a ratio. No, the teacher said. Then, is there such a thing as fraction of fraction? Meaning numerator fraction, denominator fraction? Yes. Then, is a ratio of 1:2 equals to 1/2? Yes. Then, there is such a thing as a fraction of ratios?

Principal and teacher got so angry with my P4 son for the above. Yes, it was escalated all the way to Principal, vice-principal and to a professor in NIE and MOE.

O, forgot to mention he was later told he should not bother about ratios and use ratios for his answers, since ratios are not taught in P4.

Silos in learning?

So bottom line is, I know for sure whether 2/1 is an improper fraction or not, I think most of us know that too. But, the correct answer is not important, but what the teacher wants. Well, that's how my children survived primary school - by not challenging any more.

How could they be angry, your son is so smart, I would have never thought of ratios being used that way! :goodpost:. I'm scared for those students learning under those professors from NIE and MOE... :nailbite:

[2ppaamm]

Muffins:

I'm scared for those students learning under those professors from NIE and MOE... :nailbite:

No, my son was not taught by these professors and folks from MOE. They got dragged in because they could not convince me or my son that his answer was wrong. In the end, they just said wrong means wrong. Case closed.

For us, life goes on. I learnt that my children's education has to be in my own hands.

My son never loved Maths again, though he did ok for PSLE and into sec school. now, he is pursuing fine arts. He said he'll never do maths again. I sometimes wonder how this episode would have affected him, and whether it have been better if I did not even pursue the truth.

[CoffeeCat]

Yea i realised my faulty generalization. However i believe the kid was confused due to the whole number analogy.


And why will the marks be submitted to moe? What’s the error you found in their marking.

IMHO you shouldn’t stop solving primary maths questions just because its not easy to challenge marking (we all know how frustrating bureaucratic stuff are), because probably your son got his good genes in maths from you!.

[2ppaamm]

CoffeeCat:

Yea i realised my faulty generalization. However i believe the kid was confused due to the whole number analogy.


And why will the marks be submitted to moe? What's the error you found in their marking.

IMHO you shouldn't stop solving primary maths questions just because its not easy to challenge marking (we all know how frustrating bureaucratic stuff are), because probably your son got his good genes in maths from you!.

Sorry leh, it was you who said that? I thought it was a school teacher... you can see now that I don't like to engage school teachers in maths questions.

Actually I forgot the exact question already. It involves some model drawing but instead, my son used ratios to solve them in the exams.

He got the answers correct in 2 steps, but the 'model' answer involves I think 4 or 5 steps. The market could not understand so marked him wrong. Form teacher said correct, then ding dong, ding dong. Marks have to be submitted to MOE at the end of the year, right? All records are kept there I think. That's what the HOD told my son, because marks cannot be changed even though he agreed it was correct. However, when I saw the principal, he retracted this statement.

Never mind lah... my son learnt a painful lesson about teachers being not trustworthy as well. This HOD left his job the next academic year. :?

[CoffeeCat]

its cool your son think of fraction of ratio, but ratio is not the same as fraction, they are merely the equivalent ways to describe a relation. It’s just an issue of notation. Is this what drag in folks from NIE?

[CoffeeCat]

wah this is a very sad story. However your son could have been a maths genius! How did he even get to learn ratios in p3 or 4 already?

Did you send him for maths competitions?
Unless your son present in an unorthodox way otherwise the marker must be lousy.

[2ppaamm]

CoffeeCat:

its cool your son think of fraction of ratio, but ratio is not the same as fraction, they are merely the equivalent ways to describe a relation. It's just an issue of notation. Is this what drag in folks from NIE?

Don't know lah. Because I got 4 parties to prove the answer was right since they insist I was not an expert. I got the author of the textbook they are using, MOE maths specialist (They call her that), singaporemaths website person, and a HOD from a gifted Sec school. They all agreed.

This notation is just for argument sake. He did not use this 'logic' in this question. He merely drew a line across 2 ratios, separating them. In the end, when they could not find any error, they said a fraction involving 2 ratios cannot be used, but they should know this cannot be what he was doing. Another mistake he made was to cancel those numbers because he made a mistake in writing them, then wrote the right answers next to these canceled numbers. They said this was 'reducing'. Which again was not true.

Bottom line is, they just want him to be wrong. So be it lor.

What I taught my son: from then on, use a correction tape. Then they said no, so I told him to cancel everything and redo.

As to whether a fraction involving 2 ratios is correct or not, I think that really depends on the context as well. Also don't like to argue about such things lah... not important ma... That was his way or organizing his thoughts.

[2ppaamm]

CoffeeCat:

wah this is a very sad story. However your son could have been a maths genius! How did he even get to learn ratios in p3 or 4 already?

Did you send him for maths competitions?
Unless your son present in an unorthodox way otherwise the marker must be lousy.

CoffeeCat, my son has never attended a single tuition class nor has he ever attended any enrichment class. He does his maths by staring in the air. Not sure where he learnt ratio from though... maybe from books or from surfing? Just like my other son, who understands negative numbers at 7 years old, from don't know where.

But it's ok... the older boy has already moved on to something else. Now, I don't get involved in Pri Maths anymore, so I will not feel guilty for fighting for them and getting them into trouble again. Whatever the teacher say will be.