Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore
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ChiefKiasu:
Chief, you've said it so well. The historical perspective is crystal clear and the undercurrents remain to this day.
In my opinion, Asians give too much credit to the West for upholding the principles of \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\". Where were these principles when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance came into China to force it to open up to their trade demands? And do you know why most Canadians speak French while the Americans speak English, although we all know that the Americas used to belong to the natives - the Indians? Tell the Indians that it was all for \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\".
In the years I spent in the US as a student, I do get occasional yells from drunk Americans (at least I hope they were drunk) honking their cars whizzing by me and telling me to go home. I believe that experience is somewhat similar to what some of the PRs who have lately come to our community are feeling from all the seemingly negative pressure put on them recently to give citizens priority and more benefits.
The fact is, in most competitions, there is always the home ground advantage. The home team will always be given the best chance and motivation to win. But the home team does not always win, even if the home ground advantage does skew the results to the home team. This is true regardless of whether we are an Asian or Western country.
To all PRs out there looking for a place in our society, Singapore welcomes you, as long as you add positively to our country. Such is the measure of our pragmatism. But you should not feel that you are discriminated against, for this rule is applied not only on you, but on all citizens in the country. We Singaporeans have been brought up believing that there is no place in Singapore for the lazy and the incompetent. We have been told, time and again, that our country's only resource is US, the people, and the moment we slack we will go back to being a back-water kampung in the stream. Most of our parents and ourselves have burnt ourselves up running the Singapore Marathon, where the only possible direction is forward, and any pause or rest we take is but an opportunity for others to overtake us.
If you are for Singapore, run with us as a citizen. If you are just here for the ride, enjoy the ride, but do not say we are far from being a \"civil society\". That's because, notwithstanding the smallness of our country, we are far more cosmopolitan and tolerant of foreigners and religions than the more homogeneous countries in the world. It is, after all, in our pledge as citizens of our country.
I often wonder why Singapore is so unfairly maligned, from it's \"kiasuism\" to this \"intolerance for foreigners\". The reality is, ALL countries have it. It's at the core of human nature - to want to win and to feel good about oneself. I believe the issue is with our education - we all speak some English and our thoughts are therefore widely communicated, so whatever kiasuism etc is laid bare. But what about the Japanese, the Korean, the Chinese, or heck, even the Hong Konger? They have very similar, if not more xenophobic thoughts, but their feelings are less accessible unless one reads the local language.
I don't mean to criticise anyone, but if it were true that we are intolerant, then we won't have the ethnic and cultural blend that we have today; we'd be like Japan, or even closer to home, Malaysia. Let the governmental controls and monitoring slip, and we may end up like the UK where the locals feel they are hounded out of their major cities by immigrants. Let it slip further and we'll be like Lebanon. The choice is clear. What would you have? -
Thousands of Singaporeans work in China, Indonesia, Middle East, Vietnam, etc, enjoying good pay & benefits. Hardly anyone of them would settle down in the host country, regardless of the number of years they work and live there. Most of them would eventually bring their family & savings back to Singapore.
When foreigners practice this in Singapore, it is widely regarded as negative and unacceptable or even condemned.
We want foreigners to bring their skills, knowlege & experience to Singapore & help grow the economy. But when local talents leave for greener pastures, we call them quiters.
If this is not double standard? What is it? -
Parent1:
I don’t have any figures, but going by what most of my friends are doing, they stay as foreigners in these countries and therefore, they naturally come home at the end of the overseas stint. For those who have migrated to other countries for good, they become PRs in those countries because they have the intention of remaining there and becoming citizens (which they have by the way.) The discussion that some of us seem to be having here (although it is way OT) is not about foreigners working in Singapore, but PRs. Is the above example relevant?Thousands of Singaporeans work in China, Indonesia, Middle East, Vietnam, etc, enjoying good pay & benefits. Hardly anyone of them would settle down in the host country, regardless of the number of years they work and live there. Most of them would eventually bring their family & savings back to Singapore.
Also, in those countries that you stated, are the Singaporeans getting public housing grants or subsidies for their children’s education or accusing their host countries from been unfair if they are not getting what the locals are getting?Parent1:
Could you define “widely regarded”? Is it in the media, from your encounters with the locals, etc.? Also, define “condemned”. It is true that when a PR leaves Singapore simply to avoid having his son serve NS, despite having worked here for many years and the son having gone though primary and secondary education here, many Singaporeans would feel some displeasure. Yet, to each his own. If a PR is free to come and go as and when it suits him, then let’s not talk about equality between a citizen and a PR where housing or healthcare subsidies are concerned.When foreigners practice this in Singapore, it is widely regarded as negative and unacceptable or even condemned.
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tamarind:
I think things have changed now. You need to speak Mandarin when shopping now, preferably with a cool Peking accent. That's how you receive first class treatment. Mainland Chinese are the biggest spenders now. If you speak Cantonese or English (the non-native version that is), you'll get 2nd class treatment.
Even though I can speak Cantonese fluently, I also spoke English when shopping in Hong Kong, and I received first class treatmentBusymom:
I was told specifically that I should not speak Mandarin when I went shopping, as otherwise, I would be deemed as a Mainland Chinese and would receive second class treatment from the shop assistants. It was true, and I ended up using English instead. Well, if that is not a discrimination against non-angmoh foreigners or Mainland Chinese, then I do not know what is.
I never spoke Mandarin in Hong Kong, only Cantonese or English, because I was aware of the discrimination if I was mistaken to be a mainland Chinese.
Due to the colonial education, HK people are taught to be very practical. Few have any concept of nationalism. We don't sing \"God Save the Queen\" nor \"義勇軍進行曲\". You can say it's sad not to have a sense of belonging to any nation. But this also helped HK become a true cosmopolitan city as the concept of \"country\" is vague. It's very common for HK people to emigrate to other countries and move back again. No one gets black-listed and no one would question their loyalty to HK.
It is only human nature to have prejudice against people who we feel are inferior to us. This exists in every corner of the world, even within one's family. But at least on a govt level, as I've said it many times before, I'm not aware of any policies specifically designed to segregate different classes of citizens/residents in HK. Hence I'm not used to what I see in Singapore. Maybe I should go and live in Malaysia for a while and I'll find Singapore a heaven on earth! -
tamarind:
I can't speak Cantonese fluently. When I went to HK several times, I was scolded by the shop assistants/owners for speaking Mandarin. Most of the older hongkongers did not even bother to look me at all...
Even though I can speak Cantonese fluently, I also spoke English when shopping in Hong Kong, and I received first class treatmentBusymom:
I was told specifically that I should not speak Mandarin when I went shopping, as otherwise, I would be deemed as a Mainland Chinese and would receive second class treatment from the shop assistants. It was true, and I ended up using English instead. Well, if that is not a discrimination against non-angmoh foreigners or Mainland Chinese, then I do not know what is. I never spoke Mandarin in Hong Kong, only Cantonese or English, because I was aware of the discrimination if I was mistaken to be a mainland Chinese.
But last year when I went there, I speak English, and had a wonderful experience...
I went to France. And since I can't speak French, I spoke English to the people I meet. MOST turned their noses at me and walked away. Some who bothered to answer me, told me off saying they do not like to speak English and that I should speak French. After getting this kind of treatment for my first few days there, I decided to speak in Mandarin during the first encounter. You know what happened? They obviously can't speak Mandarin so they asked me if I can speak English and they then proceeded to treat me nicely.... -
My DH didn’t speak a word of Cantonese during all those years when he was living in HK. He just spoke Mandarin there but rarely received any weird looks. Maybe he has a Taiwanese accent. I think it also depends on the people you meet.
When I was traveling in France, I usually tried to speak a little French (I helped I studied French in school before), then switch back to Eng if I couldn’t carry on anymore. They appeared very happy that I tried to speak their language. Only a few simple words like "bonjour", "ca va" can help to break the ice. Of course there’re rude people, especially in Paris. I once yelled back some swear word I picked up from my French colleagues, and they were like :!: -
minnie2004:
Minnie,Hi tree nymph, my hb came here as he found his perfect job here. He has worked in HK, US, and Australia before. He applied for PR as he wanted to buy landed property at one point. I applied for PR for the sake of convenience as PR only needs to renew every 5 years, as compared to annual renewal for the social visit pass. It's also easier to open bank accounts etc. I don't know how long we'll stay in Singapore. But judging from my hb's business, we'll be here for the foreseeable future.
In general, we like Singapore. I think it's a great place to raise a family. We like its greenery, space and laid back environment (compared to HK I mean). I find it amusing that some of our Singaporeans friends consider this place too hectic that they have to move to Australia
I don't feel discriminated personally as luckily I don't belong to one of those who coming here to fight for benefits with the locals. In fact when I mention I'm from HK, people started talking to me in Cantonese and asking me about the property market, which restaurants in HK to go to etc. I just feel some of those govt policies to differentiate foreigners from locals are rather unfair since we don't have equivalent policies in HK.
If you ask me if I want to become a citizen, I'll say definitely, if you allow dual citizenship, since both Singapore and HK are my homes now. But having grown up in HK and with family and friends there, it's hard to give up my HK passport, although practically speaking, Singapore passport is more useful in traveling. e.g. It's quite ironic that I need a visa to visit China while Singaporeans are granted 2 weeks visit w/o a visa.
Who knows, maybe my kids would become Singaporeans eventually, after attending local schools and singing Majura Singapura every day
you don't have to stay in Malaysia to realize that Singapore is actually quite a OK place to stay lah. You said it all yourself in your post! -
minnie2004:
Agree, things have certainly changed after 1997. It's true that HK people are very practical, much better than Singaporeans when it comes to adapting to the environment. These days, the shop assistants automatically speak to you in Mandarin
I think things have changed now. You need to speak Mandarin when shopping now, preferably with a cool Peking accent. That's how you receive first class treatment. Mainland Chinese are the biggest spenders now. If you speak Cantonese or English (the non-native version that is), you'll get 2nd class treatment.
The purchasing power of some Mainland Chinese is amazing. On my recent trip to UK, all the ones buying branded goods are the Chinese. Some even looked like they are still in university (but definitely not dressed like one... clad from top to bottom in Chanel). -
tree nymph:
This may also be a thing of the past... or at least in Paris itself, I never encounter any problem when I speak in English during my last few business trips there.
I went to France. And since I can't speak French, I spoke English to the people I meet. MOST turned their noses at me and walked away. Some who bothered to answer me, told me off saying they do not like to speak English and that I should speak French. After getting this kind of treatment for my first few days there, I decided to speak in Mandarin during the first encounter. You know what happened? They obviously can't speak Mandarin so they asked me if I can speak English and they then proceeded to treat me nicely....
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minnie2004:
You know what, because he doesn't shop like we women do. :lol: :lol:My DH didn't speak a word of Cantonese during all those years when he was living in HK. He just spoke Mandarin there but rarely received any weird looks. Maybe he has a Taiwanese accent. I think it also depends on the people you meet.
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