Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore

[tree nymph]

tamarind:

Busymom:

I was told specifically that I should not speak Mandarin when I went shopping, as otherwise, I would be deemed as a Mainland Chinese and would receive second class treatment from the shop assistants. It was true, and I ended up using English instead. Well, if that is not a discrimination against non-angmoh foreigners or Mainland Chinese, then I do not know what is.

Even though I can speak Cantonese fluently, I also spoke English when shopping in Hong Kong, and I received first class treatment I never spoke Mandarin in Hong Kong, only Cantonese or English, because I was aware of the discrimination if I was mistaken to be a mainland Chinese.

I can't speak Cantonese fluently. When I went to HK several times, I was scolded by the shop assistants/owners for speaking Mandarin. Most of the older hongkongers did not even bother to look me at all...

But last year when I went there, I speak English, and had a wonderful experience...

I went to France. And since I can't speak French, I spoke English to the people I meet. MOST turned their noses at me and walked away. Some who bothered to answer me, told me off saying they do not like to speak English and that I should speak French. After getting this kind of treatment for my first few days there, I decided to speak in Mandarin during the first encounter. You know what happened? They obviously can't speak Mandarin so they asked me if I can speak English and they then proceeded to treat me nicely....

[minnie2004]

My DH didn’t speak a word of Cantonese during all those years when he was living in HK. He just spoke Mandarin there but rarely received any weird looks. Maybe he has a Taiwanese accent. I think it also depends on the people you meet.


When I was traveling in France, I usually tried to speak a little French (I helped I studied French in school before), then switch back to Eng if I couldn’t carry on anymore. They appeared very happy that I tried to speak their language. Only a few simple words like "bonjour", "ca va" can help to break the ice. Of course there’re rude people, especially in Paris. I once yelled back some swear word I picked up from my French colleagues, and they were like :!:

[tree nymph]

minnie2004:

Hi tree nymph, my hb came here as he found his perfect job here. He has worked in HK, US, and Australia before. He applied for PR as he wanted to buy landed property at one point. I applied for PR for the sake of convenience as PR only needs to renew every 5 years, as compared to annual renewal for the social visit pass. It's also easier to open bank accounts etc. I don't know how long we'll stay in Singapore. But judging from my hb's business, we'll be here for the foreseeable future.


In general, we like Singapore. I think it's a great place to raise a family. We like its greenery, space and laid back environment (compared to HK I mean). I find it amusing that some of our Singaporeans friends consider this place too hectic that they have to move to Australia

I don't feel discriminated personally as luckily I don't belong to one of those who coming here to fight for benefits with the locals. In fact when I mention I'm from HK, people started talking to me in Cantonese and asking me about the property market, which restaurants in HK to go to etc. I just feel some of those govt policies to differentiate foreigners from locals are rather unfair since we don't have equivalent policies in HK.

If you ask me if I want to become a citizen, I'll say definitely, if you allow dual citizenship, since both Singapore and HK are my homes now. But having grown up in HK and with family and friends there, it's hard to give up my HK passport, although practically speaking, Singapore passport is more useful in traveling. e.g. It's quite ironic that I need a visa to visit China while Singaporeans are granted 2 weeks visit w/o a visa.

Who knows, maybe my kids would become Singaporeans eventually, after attending local schools and singing Majura Singapura every day

Minnie,
you don't have to stay in Malaysia to realize that Singapore is actually quite a OK place to stay lah. You said it all yourself in your post!

[Busymom]

minnie2004:

I think things have changed now. You need to speak Mandarin when shopping now, preferably with a cool Peking accent. That's how you receive first class treatment. Mainland Chinese are the biggest spenders now. If you speak Cantonese or English (the non-native version that is), you'll get 2nd class treatment.

Agree, things have certainly changed after 1997. It's true that HK people are very practical, much better than Singaporeans when it comes to adapting to the environment. These days, the shop assistants automatically speak to you in Mandarin

The purchasing power of some Mainland Chinese is amazing. On my recent trip to UK, all the ones buying branded goods are the Chinese. Some even looked like they are still in university (but definitely not dressed like one... clad from top to bottom in Chanel).

[Busymom]

tree nymph:

I went to France. And since I can't speak French, I spoke English to the people I meet. MOST turned their noses at me and walked away. Some who bothered to answer me, told me off saying they do not like to speak English and that I should speak French. After getting this kind of treatment for my first few days there, I decided to speak in Mandarin during the first encounter. You know what happened? They obviously can't speak Mandarin so they asked me if I can speak English and they then proceeded to treat me nicely....

This may also be a thing of the past... or at least in Paris itself, I never encounter any problem when I speak in English during my last few business trips there.

[Busymom]

minnie2004:

My DH didn't speak a word of Cantonese during all those years when he was living in HK. He just spoke Mandarin there but rarely received any weird looks. Maybe he has a Taiwanese accent. I think it also depends on the people you meet.

You know what, because he doesn't shop like we women do. :lol: :lol:

[tree nymph]

Parent1:

Thousands of Singaporeans work in China, Indonesia, Middle East, Vietnam, etc, enjoying good pay & benefits. Hardly anyone of them would settle down in the host country, regardless of the number of years they work and live there. Most of them would eventually bring their family & savings back to Singapore.


When foreigners practice this in Singapore, it is widely regarded as negative and unacceptable or even condemned.

We want foreigners to bring their skills, knowlege & experience to Singapore & help grow the economy. But when local talents leave for greener pastures, we call them quiters.

If this is not double standard? What is it?

The Singaporean working overseas - they are on Employment pass, aren't they? So I don't think they are looking for any other benefits from the local govt for themselves... Just like our Foreign domestic helper...

[Cheval]

minnie2004:

I think things have changed now. You need to speak Mandarin when shopping now, preferably with a cool Peking accent. That's how you receive first class treatment. Mainland Chinese are the biggest spenders now. If you speak Cantonese or English (the non-native version that is), you'll get 2nd class treatment.

Yes things have changed a lot in HK. I remember very clearly my first visit to HK in 1988. Most of the time shop assistants turned around when I spoke to them in Mandarin. One time a guy waved his hand showing me the door. After that I started to speak English and things became OK. Another problem came: some people had difficulty in English, including a policeman I approached to ask the road.

tree nymph:

I went to France. And since I can't speak French, I spoke English to the people I meet. MOST turned their noses at me and walked away. Some who bothered to answer me, told me off saying they do not like to speak English and that I should speak French. After getting this kind of treatment for my first few days there, I decided to speak in Mandarin during the first encounter. You know what happened? They obviously can't speak Mandarin so they asked me if I can speak English and they then proceeded to treat me nicely....

In general, the French have a mixed feeling toward English: proud of the French language and shameful of their low English level at the time. Also, I think if people start with \"Sorry do you speak English?\" things may get better. Actually it is not that polite to start to speak a different language to a local thinking that he/she should understand and reply you in your language.

Busymom:

Also, in those countries that you stated, are the Singaporeans getting public housing grants or subsidies for their children’s education or accusing their host countries from been unfair if they are not getting what the locals are getting?

Please do not take it wrong: we are not accusing Singapore in whatever way. The so-called financial benefits are not big deal. What I deplore myself, maybe Minnie included, is the discriminatory policies of the government as well as the mindset of some, finding all this normal. As I said previously, discrimination is a common practice in Asia, not just in Singapore. In Singapore even locals are sometimes discriminated (my Singaporean got no housing subsidy as foreign PhD holders, for example). What we take for granted can be unimaginable elsewhere.

I'd like share some personal experiences in France, where I studied and worked for 12 years altogether. All regular foreigners have exactly the same benefits and pay the same fees as French, except the right of voting. As such, when I was a student, I could also apply for housing subsidy just as my French classmates. French universities are free (i.e., wholly subsidized by the government) and this also applies to foreign students. For health care, the government takes on charge 85% of the cost. Usually people buy a 'Mutual' policy allowing to complete the rest. At the end of my study, thinking that I was going to leave soon, I did not renew my Mutual. Unfortunately, I got a serious bicycle accident and stayed 2 days in hospital on emergency. In the end, I paid only 300 francs (about 50 euros).

In the society, while racist acts are often heard, many French fight for food, housing and schooling of foreigners, such as African people in irregular situation. To them, that is basic human rights. In 2006, what I read in the magazine Le Monde 2 touched me to tears. Some Chinese parents pay 蛇头(snakehead?) to bring their teenage children to France. The latter are just dropped there, with their passports destroyed. Local associations for education rights came up to help them and arranged schools, during the time the police made a decision. The association members are mostly retired teachers and human-rightists so they helped the kids to study French first. When finally the Police came to take them away and the teenagers refused to leave saying they wanted to study in France, these people fight at their side. This is to say what is happening there. So please do not compare with what is done 100 years back. I am not saying France is perfect, even in human rights. It's only recently that France recognized its slavery crime in Africa. But equality of people is deep in everyone's head.

tree nymph:

Cheval,
Why do you apply to become citizen?

3 reasons: (1) I consider myself too straight, not suitable to make a career in the fast changing China. (2) Also, I find life here more comfortable -- pay relatively high. (3) Singapore is a safe place, which is good for kids.

I am grateful for all you guys taking part in the discussions. This will definitely help understand each other better. In my work and private life, we get along well with locals. That's why we choose to stay. BTW, my 2 kids a all born here; China is a place to visit, but only here is their home.
:celebrate: [/i]

[gajidouma]

Well said, everyone.


I just hope my kids will understand:

the earth is round;
competition is global;
nobody owes you a living;
learn to appreciate diversity;
........... and always be grateful. :celebrate:

[minnie2004]

Cheval:

Yes things have changed a lot in HK. I remember very clearly my first visit to HK in 1988. Most of the time shop assistants turned around when I spoke to them in Mandarin. One time a guy waved his hand showing me the door. After that I started to speak English and things became OK. Another problem came: some people had difficulty in English, including a policeman I approached to ask the road.

It's true HK people are highly adaptable. So many are learning mandarin and ignoring Eng that their Eng. standards are falling sharply. Since the Chinese govt relaxed the visa requirement for Chinese to enter HK in 2003, the no. of mainland tourists jumped exponentially. If you walk in TST (tsim sha tsui), you'd think you're in China.

Cheval:

In general, the French have a mixed feeling toward English: proud of the French language and shameful of their low English level at the time. Also, I think if people start with \"Sorry do you speak English?\" things may get better. Actually it is not that polite to start to speak a different language to a local thinking that he/she should understand and reply you in your language.
.

This reminds me of the story one of my French colleagues told me. When he was studying in the U.S. for his graduate degree, he started a conversation with a classmate in Eng. After he's done talking, his classmate told him he doesn't speak French :laugh:

Cheval:

Please do not take it wrong: we are not accusing Singapore in whatever way. The so-called financial benefits are not big deal. What I deplore myself, maybe Minnie included, is the discriminatory policies of the government as well as the mindset of some, finding all this normal.

Totally agreed. I could care less about the little govt handouts. It's the embedded spirit of discrimination I don't feel comfortable with. Maybe we lived in more liberal places before and take certain things for granted.