Any Updates As To When PSLE T-Scores Will Be Scrapped?

[jetsetter]

zulu:

phtthp:

[quote=\"ngl2010\"]This is scary if the scenario mentioned happens.


http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87269

shocking !
esp. for weak students

in the author's example, there are two weak students : X and Y
weak because : they are hovering riskily, around the low AL band, at AL5 and AL6.


AL5 : ranges from 65 to 74 marks, and
AL6 : ranges from 45 to 64


example

student X : scored 64 marks, in each of his 4 core subjects
Total Raw score = 64 x 4 = 256

per subject : fall into AL6
hence, Total AL = 6 x 4 subjects ==> AL 24

with AL 24 :
X can only qualify for Normal (Academic) stream.


in contrast, How about student Y ?
student Y : scored 45 marks in 2 subjects, plus 65 in another 2 subjects
Total Raw score = (45 x 2) + (65 x 2) = 90 + 130 = 220

2 subjects, for Y : fall into AL5
another 2 subjects : fall into AL6
hence, Total AL for Y = (5 x2) + (6 x 2) = 10 + 12 ==> AL 22

with AL 22 :
Y qualify to opt, for either Express or Normal stream.
Y can then opt, for the Express stream.


But, Who actually performed better ?
X (at 256), or Y (at 220), for Total Raw score ?

Under the new PSLE AL Banding system :
it means that X who scored 256 marks in four subjects would enter or get channeled into the Normal (Academic) stream.
In contrast, Y who scored lower 220 marks, (256 - 220 = 36 marks), much lower than X, would qualify for the Express stream.
This outcome is unfair to the one, who did much better.
:?

deleted

Edit: I think I finally understand what the author is getting at......[/quote]This part (i.e. simulation) the author was right, but the para in which he used the same figure 256 of the \"old system\" to compare with the raw marks of 256 was flawed. Under the old system, 256 has factored in the Std Dev and has been transformed. Apples must be compared with apples.

[grimm]

UBKmom:

If others that is weak in either EMS is not complaining and asking for concession, I don’t see why we should cater to such request from the minority for Chinese. I think the system is fair, if you are good for all 4, you deserve to go to the top schools, if not, too bad, you have to work harder, no short cut please.

I come from the perspective that

1) my son's mother tongue is Chinese purely from ethnicity. Arguably his mother tongue is English because his mother doesn't know Chinese. :).

2) I don't know how useful it is. I know, I know... our future Chinese overlords and everything. But I did Chinese for 12 years (more including kindergarten) and I still can't use Mandarin with my colleagues and customers in China so what's the point? In the end everything return to Chinese teacher.

[zulu]

jetsetter:

This part (i.e. simulation) the author was right, but the para in which he used the same figure 256 of the \"old system\" to compare with the raw marks of 256 was flawed. Under the old system, 256 has factored in the Std Dev and has been transformed. Apples must be compared with apples.

final answer correct but working wrong.....PSLE- no marks given

[jetsetter]

zulu:

jetsetter:

This part (i.e. simulation) the author was right, but the para in which he used the same figure 256 of the \"old system\" to compare with the raw marks of 256 was flawed. Under the old system, 256 has factored in the Std Dev and has been transformed. Apples must be compared with apples.

final answer correct but working wrong.....PSLE- no marks given

Says who? Candidate will be awarded AL 8 pts for <20 raw marks.

[ngl2010]

jetsetter:

This part (i.e. simulation) the author was right, but the para in which he used the same figure 256 of the \"old system\" to compare with the raw marks of 256 was flawed. Under the old system, 256 has factored in the Std Dev and has been transformed. Apples must be compared with apples.

To the parents that have gone through PSLE, we know that the t-score is raw marks x 0.75 plus minus 10.

So, 256 raw marks will translate to t-score 192 plus minus 10. And 220 will translate to 165 plus minus 10. In the current system, children with t-score more than 188 will have a shot at Express while children with t-score more than 152 will be in Normal Academic/Technical. In the new system, the first child will be in Normal and the 2nd child will be in Express. Both will be placed in wrong stream. So how?

[phtthp]

janet88:

i'm just curious whether the affiliation COP will be affected or MOE will still allow individual schools to decide.

we know the verdict of affliation details, is not announced by MOE, yet.
They are still in discussion, still \"negotiating\".
those from mission schools, from Clan schools : more to negotiate

But for chit-chat, just suppose if MOE were to standardize across the board, by giving the affliated mission schools' students minus 2 bonus points : don't you think is generous ?

example

let's suppose one popular mission Secondary school AL Cut off point, is set at 10.

if the affliated primary school students apply with AL 12 points, plus on condition that they list this school as #1 choice, in their list of 6 choices :
means these students can goback Secondary school for \"O\" level, liao.

isn't it, great ?
with AL 12 (discounted 2 points), in this case : affliated students can go back, for O level
in contrast, outsiders need a higher score (AL 10), then can enter this school.
if outsiders like this popular school very much : \"die-die\" minimum they must achieve AL 10, before can apply.

2 bonus points : is a lot, already
(better than nothing)


currently, quite a number of Catholic mission Secondary schools listed, can enter Catholic Junior College for \"A\" level, with discounted 2 points

http://www.cjc.edu.sg/about/our-history

[sushi88]

Blurryburger:

sushi88:

In the new system, if a child is in any school, it is attributed to choice. Even if one does not get into their choiced school, parents can say \"sway lor...kenna balloted out\"... So stress is reduced right?

The ST reported that \"Based on past cohorts' performance and choice patterns, about one in 10 pupils would have to undergo balloting, according to MOE.\"

I want to know more about that 1 in 10 statistic. In what hypothetical band are these 10% students coming from? What type of choices would effect such a predicament?

And why is MOE allowing arbitrariness into the system in, what I would consider, a big way. Isn't it bad that p1 registration already allows privileges to only some families while the others had to contend with arbitrary balloting? Why does MOE think that a 10 percent statistic is a tolerable percentage to our children and citizens? Why is this 10 percent of arbitrary chance better than the current meritocratic system? It's not about an entitlement mentality. Above all, shouldn't the Ministry care about creating an environment that is as safe as it is certain for our children to learn and grow? Life throws up all kinds of challenges to us. But why should policies add on to more uncertainty?

What signal does it send to our kids? \"Too bad? This is life?\" By the way, this would be life with a qualifier - it is life that will be caused by the education policies.

I cannot comprehend why policy makers would consider introducing more arbitrariness into a system a good policy, especially in education. If I hadn't grown up in this country whereby meritocracy is so ingrained in me, I would have concluded that MOE is using balloting as a cop-out. I still believe that the past scholars working in MOE and public service are worthy of their positions. But, please tell me why is this considered good policy-making?

I also prefer the T-score for very detail results to 6 decimal places for clear comparison but I am ok for the new system if it reduces stress for the majority. Seriously in primary school, there is no need to measure kids to this level of granularity for the majority. Going to secondary school and do well still depends a lot on the child to cope with 7-10 subjects and excel in them, not so much the school they go to. There are many case studies of students with very high T-scores doing averagely in school now and it is not surprising at all...The PSLE exam does not factor in the growth factor of a child...some slow down in sec school and nothing guarantees in a better school means all would be well. The govt is not playing down on meritocracy but the current issue to cool down the heat of PSLE is very real as the children are indeed suffering the stress exerted on them with tonnes of tuition just to squeeze into a better T-score with 6 decimal places for the majority.

[CatMoon]

phtthp:

janet88:

i'm just curious whether the affiliation COP will be affected or MOE will still allow individual schools to decide.

we know the verdict of affliation details, is not announced by MOE, yet.
They are still in discussion, still \"negotiating\".
those from mission schools, from Clan schools : more to negotiate

But for chit-chat, just suppose if MOE were to standardize across the board, by giving the affliated mission schools' students minus 2 bonus points : don't you think is generous ?

example

let's suppose one popular mission Secondary school AL Cut off point, is set at 10.

if the affliated primary school students apply with AL 12 points, plus on condition that they list this school as #1 choice, in their list of 6 choices :
means these students can goback Secondary school for \"O\" level, liao.

isn't it, great ?
with AL 12 (discounted 2 points), in this case : affliated students can go back, for O level
in contrast, outsiders need a higher score (AL 10), then can enter this school.
if outsiders like this popular school very much : \"die-die\" minimum they must achieve AL 10, before can apply.

2 bonus points : is a lot, already
(better than nothing)


currently, quite a number of Catholic mission Secondary schools listed, can enter Catholic Junior College for \"A\" level, with discounted 2 points

http://www.cjc.edu.sg/about/our-history

I bet MOE will not be giving the 2 points for affiliation. Most likely the scenario would be -
If you want affiliation, put that school as your first choice.

[jetsetter]

ngl2010:

jetsetter:

This part (i.e. simulation) the author was right, but the para in which he used the same figure 256 of the \"old system\" to compare with the raw marks of 256 was flawed. Under the old system, 256 has factored in the Std Dev and has been transformed. Apples must be compared with apples.

To the parents that have gone through PSLE, we know that the t-score is raw marks x 0.75 plus minus 10.

So, 256 raw marks will translate to t-score 192 plus minus 10. And 220 will translate to 165 plus minus 10. In the current system, children with t-score more than 188 will have a shot at Express while children with t-score more than 152 will be in Normal Academic/Technical. In the new system, the first child will be in Normal and the 2nd child will be in Express. Both will be placed in wrong stream. So how?

[quote]For the student who would have scored 256 marks in the old system, would score 24 points in new system which qualifies him only for Normal stream. Another pupil who would have scored 220 marks in old system would score 22 points which qualifies him to opt for Express or Normal stream.[/quote]Ah, ok I finally see why I saw oranges instead of apples I thought author's \"256 marks in the old system\" meant T-score, but Mr Chee meant raw marks. Now that you've helped transform 256, it's no longer confusing Tks ngl!


Well, MOE needs to conduct more rigorous testings and simulations to minimise deviant scenarios of this sort.

[grimm]

CatMoon:

I bet MOE will not be giving the 2 points for affiliation. Most likely the scenario would be -
If you want affiliation, put that school as your first choice.

You have to do that today anyway to enjoy the affiliation benefit.

From MOE website: \"Students of such primary schools who want to continue education in the affiliated secondary school must indicate that school as their first choice.\"

https://www.moe.gov.sg/admissions/secondary-one-posting-exercise/considerations

What we don't know is:
1) Will there be additional discount for affiliation?
2) How much that discount will be? Will it mandated by MOE or the school?

An alternate scenario could be affiliation will have priority over those with the same choice (which works for me but my son benefits from affiliation so I am hardly neutral here)