Is the current System still valid?

[verykiasu2010]

ChiefKiasu:

I believe the MOE recognises this, but faces an up-hill task trying to correct the situation. It has tried changing the syllabus, but ended up with creating more stress for students and their parents because the fundamental issue of grades was not addressed. When it tried to address the issue of grades, it faced immense criticism from the public. Look at what happened when MOE proposed the lowering of Chinese weightage in PSLE, and the new issue of P1-2 not having examinations or grades. See how parents reacted to the issue. The fundamental public opinion is that the education system should prepare children to SCORE in examinations!

Do we have any alternative that is objective enough to replace the exam grading system to measure the learning progress of the kids ? Until and unless an alternative has been identified and tested, proven robust, easy to implement and widely accepted ...... we are still a long way off

exam system has been around since the days of Qin Shi Huang when he standardised languages and words and oh......he could have finished burning all the books then .........lol

[mrswongtuition]

verykiasu2010:

and oh......he could have finished burning all the books then .........lol

Oh yes, he should have burnt every book on Earth!

[LightingtheSpark]

Thank you for your replies. I understand that this is a difficult topic. Let me state upfront that I am no Education expert but I have a vested interest (my son) for wanting to learn about it and see how it can be improved further.


It is likely not just the education system that has to change, but also the way employers judge their prospective hires and the way that majority of the people make a living. It is a big problem that needs to be resolve at different parts of society.

Verykiasu2010, I think Chief made a good point about meritocracy, which underpins much of Singapore’s success. We do need a fair way to differentiate people and direct them to their most suited role in society. Some form of examinations is thus inevitable. We have come some way in the way we conduct our examinations. Today, you have the Through-train system and I read that 16 primary schools have even done away with P1 examinations. I applaud the efforts our Ministry have put in over the years, but I do think we are far from a steady state process of tweaking the System in the right direction. The way we implement changes seem to be (1) playing a catch-up game all the time, (2) changing without really changing legacy mindsets and (3) not daring to confront the difficult issues, including how we incentivize the teachers and various parties.

Why is this a problem? Playing catch-up means going after the ball by aiming for where it is right now in the air, instead of running to where it is likely to end up. You are likely to miss. Tweaking the system without addressing legacy mindsets is simply putting on bells and whistles onto the same old thing that doesn’t work. Not addressing difficult issues like teacher incentives lead to implementation problems like those that even I, as a 3rd party bystander, can identify and can see getting worse. For example, I think our culture of sending kids to tuition classes has led to perverse twists in the System, where full-time teachers are attracted to moonlighting and worse still, more and more parents think Tuition is necessary (just to keep up, or to gain an edge). I feel sorry for the children, especially when I truly believe Tuition often does more harm to the child’s psyche and is much less useful than perceived. Parents send their children to tuition because they have no time to help or no ability to help. It helps to relieve their guilt. Children just obey, for the sake of not wanting to hurt their parents.

Verykiasu2010, Singapore has done a good job in copying the best of everything from the rest of the world. It is the smart way to do things and also easy for civil servants to write papers to justify. But I increasingly believe that it is time that we thought for ourselves and walk our own path. There is no such thing as “an alternative that has been identified, tested, proven robust, easy to implement and widely accepted”. By definition, alternatives are not like that. We must write our own story. And I think we can. Let us move away from our Colonial hangover, thinking that it is sexy and best to just go round copying. We are likely at the stage where most of the people that we are copying from also don’t know what they are doing. We must think for ourselves and try to design our own. And we can. Singapore, being a small city, is much easier to implement new systems. The caveat is that we should implement well-thought through and comprehensive systems that are not just an amalgamation of best practices. Things just don’t work like that. The changes must be both good in concept and executable in implementation.

Yes, exams have been around for thousands of years. But pervasive internet penetration has only been around for ≈ 20 years. The world has changed and change is accelerating. We need to move on and prepare for the future. Those who believe that the old school still works ought to take a look at our Asian competitors and try to understand how competing with them head-on is futile. We need to find our own place in this smarter web of value chains.


Dear Chief,

Firstly, thank you for starting this thread. Really appreciate it. For a moment, when I saw my posting removed from the newbie folder, I thought that I kena kicked out for raising this issue. But I now know better.

Thank you for your reply. I see that you have given it some thought as well. I will touch on a few issues.

I agree that no one knows the future and that we can only do our best. What I do know however, is that the current system will likely be not good enough. And I am quite fed up with just accepting things as they are. I am less willing to accept it anymore simply because I want the best for my son, like all of us who even bother coming to this website.

I agree that Curiosity is very important, but I think not everyone is wired that way and we probably don’t need everyone to be. Thinking worker? I agree that “thinking” is what we need, but “worker” will no longer be sufficient for the future. We seem to be moving towards a COLLABORATIVE model of working. Societies are moving in that direction, thanks to the proliferation of social networks. Workplaces are also doing the same, especially since employees’ value add is no longer just about vomiting out information but actually USING that information.

I don’t think Passion and exams are inherently incompatible. What is more important is that we as parents do not kill our children’s passion, in the fear that time spent on Passion = time and results taken from exams. In his 2009 speech that I posted, Sir Ken Robinson quoted the poet WB Yeats:

HAD I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
He reminded us that every day, our children spread their dreams under our feet. And we ought to tread softly.

Does “having a good and stable job with sufficient income” make us happy? Many live in quiet desperation, not understanding how is it that, even after achieving a good and stable job with sufficient income, they are still very unhappy? Does doing well in your studies guarantee you a good job and career? Does not doing well in your studies condemn you to a lesser job and career? My answer to both questions is “Not necessarily”. I personally know of many counter examples. Passion and love for one’s work is still the most important ingredient for success and a job well done. Idealistic and naïve? Maybe, but I know no other way except to tell the truth about something this close to the heart. Others may continue to live in quiet, desperate, denial.

What can MOE do? I don’t have a good answer and am not in a good position to comment, especially without knowing their institutional and political constraints. But I hope to be able to develop an answer with all of your help. Sometimes, change needs to be comprehensive instead of piecemeal. Because only when it is comprehensive, people can understand what you are doing and where you are headed. Timid bite-size evolution may not be appropriate at the important junctures when a true revolution / mindset change of the system is required.

[verykiasu2010]

so what is your proposal ? if there is no alternative then what are you trying to say ?


so what is so wrong with tuition ?

Quote : \"For example, I think our culture of sending kids to tuition classes has led to perverse twists in the System, where full-time teachers are attracted to moonlighting and worse still, more and more parents think Tuition is necessary (just to keep up, or to gain an edge). I feel sorry for the children, especially when I truly believe Tuition often does more harm to the child’s psyche and is much less useful than perceived. Parents send their children to tuition because they have no time to help or no ability to help. It helps to relieve their guilt. Children just obey, for the sake of not wanting to hurt their parents.\" Unquote

does more harm ? to relief guilt ? you come from Utopia ?


why is internet penetration perverse ? you mean there is no good use to it ? aren't you using it now t o communicate with us in this Forum ?

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

[mocharita]

LightingtheSpark:

Hi,


I am a new father of a boy. Starting to think about his education and primary school. Yes, a bit early, but it's just me... I like to plan ahead. I see 3 choices ahead of me:



1) Follow the well-trodden path to getting my son into the \"best\" primary school that makes sense for us, in terms of distance and available means to increase his probability of getting in.

2) Find a school that gives my son the best exposure on multiple fronts. One with passionate teachers and principals. One that truly cares about the individual students. (unfortunately, I can find no ranking list based on similar criteria)

3) Something totally different. I do not know what this may be yet.

But, I have deep concerns about option 1. While it may be a bit strange for me to be airing such a view on Kiasuparents, I have no ill intent. I just hope to get some feedback to develop my thoughts further. My concern is this -- THAT THE CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM WILL NO LONGER BE VALID FOR OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE. No doubt, it is all we have now. But I really think we need new models going forward.

Why do I think so?

1) Graduating from the System no longer guarantees you a job in the real world.

2) The System is too restrictive and is too conformist. The typical graduate from the System (by this, I do not mean tertiary graduate, I just mean someone who has exited at whatever level) is one who is likely too fearful to be independent, too conformist and not too hungry. Hunger and passion is severely lacking in many people.

3) The current System is unsustainable if we, as a Nation, want to remain competitive going forward.

-----

This topic is something very close to my heart. I really got down to thinking about it only after watching the following videos from TED.COM. I recommend you watch all 3 and think about the topic.

http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/temple_grandin_the_world_needs_all_kinds_of_minds.html

-----
Ok, that's all for now. Will be most appreciative if the community can contribute your thoughts on this topic please. Thank you and I look forward to an interesting discussion.

To the Moderators: If you think this is a topic of importance, I would be grateful if you could set up a discussion topic, with higher visibility on this forum, in order to generate a better discussion. Thank you.

: ) LightingtheSpark

Homeshooled your kiddo, babe. :roll:

[mrswongtuition]

verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?


Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

[mocharita]

mrswongtuition:

verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?


Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

Eeeieks! Why are you comparing with neighboring countries??? Why do you have to compare with the lower ones to make your points known?

You said, ‘Without exams,
90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc. Ho ho ho.., that’s means only 10% from the school will do well without homework, revisions or what they have learnt from teachers??

Blimey! No wonder tuition fees are extremely high!

[mocharita]

insider:

The system here will not change. PERIOD.


People who dare to change must be able to think out of the box and be willing to take risk but those in MOE likely to just kwai kwai not to rock to boat as any mis-step will become a 千古罪人。 Better just kwai kwai day in day out do similar things...if there's going to be any change, better someone proposes and does it and not me... safe...stable...

Out of 10 kids, probably 2.5 of them really need it. Tuition for the rest of the 7.5 kids are more or less a waste of money, time and health of these children and it harms the child's psyche (as in unable to learn independence earlier). It really puzzled me but I gotta be 见怪不怪 when my daughter's Sec 4 'elite' class has a tuition rate of above 90%. Ａｌｌ these bright kids, why can't their parents just have more faith in them that they can study on own without crutches? (my daughter only has 6 months tuition in her Japanese language prior to O level, other than that, it's nil tuition from P1 till now.) Some parents really tuition for tuition sake...

Agreed!

There are kids who genuinely need tuitions but alot don't at all. You are spot on, some parents really need to be tutored instead.

[mocharita]

insider:

mocharita:

some parents really need to be tutored instead.

Easy to teach children but very very difficult to educate parents. The herd instinct and kiasuism, the need to buy 'insurance' (via tuition) for 'just-in-case' scenario, the need to do the 'BEST' that they can do for their kids, etc. Those are not easy to shake off. 宁可杀错、不可放过approach towards their kids' academic journey.

Average number of subjects my daughter's classmates had for tuitions is two. Her best friend got FOUR!!! Her best friend from what I see is brighter than her and both parents are lecturers who actually 'bribed' her best friend with extra pocket money for her to go to her tuitions 'dutifully' (now she is in Hwa Chong and still 'tuitioning' as usual).

Don't compare lor.

Enjoy your daughter from now till she's in her 20's. You will be surprised when she comes to you for an expected question. Everyday, my kid asks me and challenge me questions. Honestly, at times I googled for the answers.

Hwa Chong or Chong Pang are not important at all. Obviously, we want our kids to go to the 'best' school. If they can't be there, what are we goin to do?? Slit our neck infront of them? NO, right?!?

Teach them to make the best out of it and as parents, all we have to do is to watch, watch, watch and correct them. Parenting is never easy.

[LightingtheSpark]

Verykiasu2010,


I do not have a ready proposal but am trying to think of one. I said this early on. And perhaps with the help of readers and members of this excellent website/forum, maybe we will get lucky in coming up with one.

I am not saying that there is no alternative. I am saying that there is no easy and ready alternative. We need to think it over, starting from first principles, and try to design a better System. Or would you rather just leave it to the Authorities? Maybe they need help from the people who care most? ie the Parents who want the best for their children? Maybe they face constraints as insider suggested? Or do you believe that it is just better to “leave it to the experts”? I personally would continue to question the experts. They have been trying, but it is still not good enough.

I stick by what I said about Tuition. Insider made a good point about tuition potentially delaying the tipping point where your child can learn independently. I agree with that. What seems to be missing in our System is the focus on helping our children find their passion and helping them Light that Spark, which will initiate an unstoppable process of lifelong Continual Learning and Continual Improvement. That in my opinion, is the most important role of an Education System.

I do not come from Utopia. I do not believe in Utopia. I am as practical a person as you will find.

Peverse internet penetration? This was a typo and I apologise. My ang moh is not perfect and it was way past my bedtime. I meant to say “pervasive” (widespread) instead of “perverse”. I have corrected this error. Thanks for pointing it out.

I agree that exams must stay. But I think they need to be tweaked. It’s not easy because we must also be concerned about its recognition at a global level (overseas universities and employers).

Mrswongtuition,

Thanks for your frank feedback. I agree with your hubby – no point worrying (and just whining), we must do something about it. I am trying to do something about it. Step one for me is to better understand the situation and to engage with other parents.

You made a good point about needing to build a support system for the child. I will keep that in mind. Maybe I am thinking too much about the larger Education System and should just focus on my boy alone. But maybe I will try doing both together.

I sincerely understand the current situation where most families have 2 working parents. I think tuition and enrichment centres do have a role in our society. I just think that parents may be misled into thinking that (1) it is definitely useful and a must-have, regardless of your child’s personal needs and wants, and (2) that since I sent my child to tuition, I have done all I can, and can do no more. There is much more that the parents can do. And what I really feel sorry about is the existence of Predator Tuition Teachers who prey on the situation, who don’t really do a good job but still continue to suck precious $ from willing parents.

Am I going to write some form of proposal? I did consider doing that and am not ruling it out. But I do need to better understand this topic from various perspectives first. I think it is a big project that may take a couple of years on a part-time basis. I ask that the KSP community keeps this thread going with ideas and perspectives on how to approach this issue. In the months ahead, once we get enough stuff, maybe I will then sit down to summarize and develop some structure to addressing the issue.

Insider,

I am curious about your nickname… are you truly an “insider”? : p

Civil Service careers do have their qwerks and processes are often not the most efficient. This is well-known and undisputable. Herein lies the problem. Even well-intentioned smart individuals within the organization might feel bounded by institutional constraints and eventually have their fire put out and conform to the organizational culture, which may not be conducive for true and positive change. All organizations face the same problem. When it comes to something as important as our children and their education, this becomes quite a shame. I think the time has come to not just pay lip service anymore. We have a real need to change and probably a real opportunity to do so, given how Government agencies are now much more receptive to feedback and open to public engagement.

You want to increase productivity? Then start with the mindsets of people. Start with helping them find their passion. Start with helping to instill “hunger” in them. Stop making things cushy and giving people the wrong impression that there is a “correct path” to take when educating our kids. There isn’t.

Mocharita,

I envy you. I think it is an excellent thing for your kids to be so curious. Keep the curiosity burning in them.


One last thought before I keep quiet for the next few days…

Do you think the better students who score better in their exams (primary to pre-U) go on to do better in life?

I think - not necessarily so. Though, based on common sense, it is probably still true from a big picture view. But I only have my group of ex-classmates and friends to draw this conclusion from. Good students may end up in lesser jobs and roles than those who did not do as well in school. But from my small sample group, I can tell you one thing. Those who got to do what they love doing are ALL doing well in their jobs and are much more happy about their lives. “Good grades in school do not guarantee future success and happiness”. We, as parents, should keep this in mind.