Is the current System still valid?

[mocharita]

LightingtheSpark:

Hi,


I am a new father of a boy. Starting to think about his education and primary school. Yes, a bit early, but it's just me... I like to plan ahead. I see 3 choices ahead of me:



1) Follow the well-trodden path to getting my son into the \"best\" primary school that makes sense for us, in terms of distance and available means to increase his probability of getting in.

2) Find a school that gives my son the best exposure on multiple fronts. One with passionate teachers and principals. One that truly cares about the individual students. (unfortunately, I can find no ranking list based on similar criteria)

3) Something totally different. I do not know what this may be yet.

But, I have deep concerns about option 1. While it may be a bit strange for me to be airing such a view on Kiasuparents, I have no ill intent. I just hope to get some feedback to develop my thoughts further. My concern is this -- THAT THE CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM WILL NO LONGER BE VALID FOR OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE. No doubt, it is all we have now. But I really think we need new models going forward.

Why do I think so?

1) Graduating from the System no longer guarantees you a job in the real world.

2) The System is too restrictive and is too conformist. The typical graduate from the System (by this, I do not mean tertiary graduate, I just mean someone who has exited at whatever level) is one who is likely too fearful to be independent, too conformist and not too hungry. Hunger and passion is severely lacking in many people.

3) The current System is unsustainable if we, as a Nation, want to remain competitive going forward.

-----

This topic is something very close to my heart. I really got down to thinking about it only after watching the following videos from TED.COM. I recommend you watch all 3 and think about the topic.

http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/temple_grandin_the_world_needs_all_kinds_of_minds.html

-----
Ok, that's all for now. Will be most appreciative if the community can contribute your thoughts on this topic please. Thank you and I look forward to an interesting discussion.

To the Moderators: If you think this is a topic of importance, I would be grateful if you could set up a discussion topic, with higher visibility on this forum, in order to generate a better discussion. Thank you.

: ) LightingtheSpark

Homeshooled your kiddo, babe. :roll:

[mrswongtuition]

verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?


Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

[mocharita]

mrswongtuition:

verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?


Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

Eeeieks! Why are you comparing with neighboring countries??? Why do you have to compare with the lower ones to make your points known?

You said, ‘Without exams,
90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc. Ho ho ho.., that’s means only 10% from the school will do well without homework, revisions or what they have learnt from teachers??

Blimey! No wonder tuition fees are extremely high!

[mocharita]

insider:

The system here will not change. PERIOD.


People who dare to change must be able to think out of the box and be willing to take risk but those in MOE likely to just kwai kwai not to rock to boat as any mis-step will become a 千古罪人。 Better just kwai kwai day in day out do similar things...if there's going to be any change, better someone proposes and does it and not me... safe...stable...

Out of 10 kids, probably 2.5 of them really need it. Tuition for the rest of the 7.5 kids are more or less a waste of money, time and health of these children and it harms the child's psyche (as in unable to learn independence earlier). It really puzzled me but I gotta be 见怪不怪 when my daughter's Sec 4 'elite' class has a tuition rate of above 90%. Ａｌｌ these bright kids, why can't their parents just have more faith in them that they can study on own without crutches? (my daughter only has 6 months tuition in her Japanese language prior to O level, other than that, it's nil tuition from P1 till now.) Some parents really tuition for tuition sake...

Agreed!

There are kids who genuinely need tuitions but alot don't at all. You are spot on, some parents really need to be tutored instead.

[mocharita]

insider:

mocharita:

some parents really need to be tutored instead.

Easy to teach children but very very difficult to educate parents. The herd instinct and kiasuism, the need to buy 'insurance' (via tuition) for 'just-in-case' scenario, the need to do the 'BEST' that they can do for their kids, etc. Those are not easy to shake off. 宁可杀错、不可放过approach towards their kids' academic journey.

Average number of subjects my daughter's classmates had for tuitions is two. Her best friend got FOUR!!! Her best friend from what I see is brighter than her and both parents are lecturers who actually 'bribed' her best friend with extra pocket money for her to go to her tuitions 'dutifully' (now she is in Hwa Chong and still 'tuitioning' as usual).

Don't compare lor.

Enjoy your daughter from now till she's in her 20's. You will be surprised when she comes to you for an expected question. Everyday, my kid asks me and challenge me questions. Honestly, at times I googled for the answers.

Hwa Chong or Chong Pang are not important at all. Obviously, we want our kids to go to the 'best' school. If they can't be there, what are we goin to do?? Slit our neck infront of them? NO, right?!?

Teach them to make the best out of it and as parents, all we have to do is to watch, watch, watch and correct them. Parenting is never easy.

[LightingtheSpark]

Verykiasu2010,


I do not have a ready proposal but am trying to think of one. I said this early on. And perhaps with the help of readers and members of this excellent website/forum, maybe we will get lucky in coming up with one.

I am not saying that there is no alternative. I am saying that there is no easy and ready alternative. We need to think it over, starting from first principles, and try to design a better System. Or would you rather just leave it to the Authorities? Maybe they need help from the people who care most? ie the Parents who want the best for their children? Maybe they face constraints as insider suggested? Or do you believe that it is just better to “leave it to the experts”? I personally would continue to question the experts. They have been trying, but it is still not good enough.

I stick by what I said about Tuition. Insider made a good point about tuition potentially delaying the tipping point where your child can learn independently. I agree with that. What seems to be missing in our System is the focus on helping our children find their passion and helping them Light that Spark, which will initiate an unstoppable process of lifelong Continual Learning and Continual Improvement. That in my opinion, is the most important role of an Education System.

I do not come from Utopia. I do not believe in Utopia. I am as practical a person as you will find.

Peverse internet penetration? This was a typo and I apologise. My ang moh is not perfect and it was way past my bedtime. I meant to say “pervasive” (widespread) instead of “perverse”. I have corrected this error. Thanks for pointing it out.

I agree that exams must stay. But I think they need to be tweaked. It’s not easy because we must also be concerned about its recognition at a global level (overseas universities and employers).

Mrswongtuition,

Thanks for your frank feedback. I agree with your hubby – no point worrying (and just whining), we must do something about it. I am trying to do something about it. Step one for me is to better understand the situation and to engage with other parents.

You made a good point about needing to build a support system for the child. I will keep that in mind. Maybe I am thinking too much about the larger Education System and should just focus on my boy alone. But maybe I will try doing both together.

I sincerely understand the current situation where most families have 2 working parents. I think tuition and enrichment centres do have a role in our society. I just think that parents may be misled into thinking that (1) it is definitely useful and a must-have, regardless of your child’s personal needs and wants, and (2) that since I sent my child to tuition, I have done all I can, and can do no more. There is much more that the parents can do. And what I really feel sorry about is the existence of Predator Tuition Teachers who prey on the situation, who don’t really do a good job but still continue to suck precious $ from willing parents.

Am I going to write some form of proposal? I did consider doing that and am not ruling it out. But I do need to better understand this topic from various perspectives first. I think it is a big project that may take a couple of years on a part-time basis. I ask that the KSP community keeps this thread going with ideas and perspectives on how to approach this issue. In the months ahead, once we get enough stuff, maybe I will then sit down to summarize and develop some structure to addressing the issue.

Insider,

I am curious about your nickname… are you truly an “insider”? : p

Civil Service careers do have their qwerks and processes are often not the most efficient. This is well-known and undisputable. Herein lies the problem. Even well-intentioned smart individuals within the organization might feel bounded by institutional constraints and eventually have their fire put out and conform to the organizational culture, which may not be conducive for true and positive change. All organizations face the same problem. When it comes to something as important as our children and their education, this becomes quite a shame. I think the time has come to not just pay lip service anymore. We have a real need to change and probably a real opportunity to do so, given how Government agencies are now much more receptive to feedback and open to public engagement.

You want to increase productivity? Then start with the mindsets of people. Start with helping them find their passion. Start with helping to instill “hunger” in them. Stop making things cushy and giving people the wrong impression that there is a “correct path” to take when educating our kids. There isn’t.

Mocharita,

I envy you. I think it is an excellent thing for your kids to be so curious. Keep the curiosity burning in them.


One last thought before I keep quiet for the next few days…

Do you think the better students who score better in their exams (primary to pre-U) go on to do better in life?

I think - not necessarily so. Though, based on common sense, it is probably still true from a big picture view. But I only have my group of ex-classmates and friends to draw this conclusion from. Good students may end up in lesser jobs and roles than those who did not do as well in school. But from my small sample group, I can tell you one thing. Those who got to do what they love doing are ALL doing well in their jobs and are much more happy about their lives. “Good grades in school do not guarantee future success and happiness”. We, as parents, should keep this in mind.

[tamarind]

Read what the PM has to say.


http://www.pmo.gov.sg/News/Transcripts/Prime+Minister/Elite+school+or+not+doesnt+matter+PM.htm

Elite school or not doesn't matter: PM
Success hinges more on what one makes of the opportunities given
By Cassandra Chew


FOR 20 years, the display band of Bowen Secondary School in Hougang has been top of the pops.

Next month, the neighbourhood school is set to march into the spotlight again, when its band becomes a star attraction at the opening ceremony of the annual Singapore Youth Festival.

Its achievements are not lost on Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, who held it up before 500 pre-university students yesterday when he stressed to them that their future success did not hinge on going to an elite school. It pivots on what they make of the opportunities they are given.

'Our education system provides something for everyone, not just in a few top schools, but in many good schools and JCs all over Singapore,' he said at the annual Pre-University Seminar at the University Cultural Centre.

Bowen, for instance, spares no expense in giving the best education to its band members, he noted.

Instructors are flown in from Japan and key members are sent to receive training alongside a famous band in Nagoya.

The school illustrates his point that good teaching, a varied curriculum and a wide range of activities are available in every school across the island, and not just 'elite' ones.

PM Lee's remarks were spurred by a debate in The Straits Times Forum pages on the stiff competition to enter elite junior colleges, or JCs.

He highlighted two letters.

One had a student arguing that those in non-elite JCs, which also offer solid education, have ample chances to do well if they put in the effort.

The other, from a Pioneer JC alumnus, pointed out that being in an elite JC is no indicator of future success.

The writer also said no JC in Singapore is inferior and that success should not be defined solely as getting into top schools.

PM Lee agreed with the letter writers, a nod of approval that resonated with many of the students.

Delia Toh from Raffles Institution said many parents feel 'anything outside of academic achievements is sort of a waste of time'. She asked what could be done to correct the mindset.

PM Lee said it is up to parents to believe that there are many places where students can get a good education.

'I believe it,' he added, pointing out that Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew attended the 100th birthday of his alma mater, Telok Kurau Primary School, to remind people that one does not have to go to a good school to do well.

'What counts, as the Pioneer JC alumnus said, is what you do with your life and that's quite fundamental,' he said.

Li Yi Jia from Dunman High asked how Singapore can progress as a meritocratic society without elitism rearing its ugly head.

By ensuring Singapore keeps its doors open for the talented and capable to contribute, PM Lee replied.

'That's one of the reasons we want to make sure all our schools are good schools... you don't have to go to the best school in Singapore or the most popular school in Singapore in order to get ahead,' he said.

[tamarind]

I think it is impossible to change the system. But it is possible for parents to make the system work for our kids.


My girl is now in P1, in a neighbourhood primary school in Jurong West. Many of our colleagues were surprised that we did not try to put her in Nanyang, RGPS, etc. I am happy with my choice. I want her to be in a neighbourhood school where she can interact with children from all social classes, not just kids who live in private property. She almost has no homework. The school encourages students to read extensively, and do less assessment books. This is in line with my thinking. The school has no ranking for the mid year exams. They show the lowest, average, highest scores in all subjects, which I think is good enough.

I think it is fine to have exams. But it is totally unnecessary to rank kids in primary school. Parents are unhappy only when they start to compare with other kids. What is the difference between 95 and 100 marks ? I don't think there is any significant difference. The child with 95 marks may turn out to be a better adult than the child with 100 marks

Parents are stressed because of the competition. But education should not be about competition. Education should be about developing the love of life long learning.

Instead of making my kids memorize the multiplication tables, I allow them to do things like arts and crafts, origami, jewellery making, and even baking cupcakes and cookies. I am very happy when my almost 6 years old boy is able to fold a complex origami paper crane entirely out of memory, especially when it is a very tiny one measuring about 2 cm tall. I am very pleased when my 7 year old girl can make a pair of very intricate and beautiful ear-rings using tiny beads and wires. Both my kids are able to read long English novels before the age of 5. I make sure that they read regularly, not solely for the purpose of exams, but mainly for their enjoyment. There are fantastic and exciting worlds in the children's classics.

I have heard of parents saying that my girl's school is no good because kids have no homework. But I am actually happy that she has no homework, so that I can give her my homework : reading all the wonderful children's classics.

We can give our kids a good education, and a happy childhood, if parents can just forget about the competition.

[LightingtheSpark]

insider:

LightingtheSpark,


I don't spend my energy and time in trying to do anything for the existing mainstream education system anymore though I am still doing whatever I can to create a 'nightmare' to some of these parents - to fight for a compulsory admission of x% of special needs children in EVERY class in EVERY school (up from preschools / kindergartens onwards).

To Insider:

I see. I appreciate what you are doing. Exposure can be beneficial to both special needs children and mainstream children. It will probably help to develop a kinder and more accepting society.

Out of curiosity, do you know how many special needs children are born every year in Singapore? How many are there in the special needs schools right now? How many are in mainstream schools right now? How are the kids segmented in terms of severity of conditions /etc? Perhaps a transition step to your target could be to get some in first?

[corneyAmber]

Actually one of the areas that is constantly changing in Singapore is its education system other than its transportation. These are two highly volatile ministries. :lol: Like a corporate, every new year, there would be announcements of some changes, hence it has evolved to be what it is today and I am still trying to keep up with it. :lol:


I suppose the key question on its current validity is only the exam system which remains stoicly unchanged, whether it is the best way to assess majority of the children. I would give a resounding yes for the majority. Again, I would emphasize that we should not try to make changes for the minority across the board for the majority. It is both a dream and a nightmare to build a society of all \"thinkers\". There will be mavericks on the street and we have to pay even more tax to keep things under control.

I suppose the key question is how to assess those with potential as \"thinkers\". MOE has already carved out 1% of those. The next question is, how about the other top 7%(I don't remember the previous rationale why top 8% was selected for SAP programme but I am just using back the same top 8% criteria). The top 1% is already taken care of because entering a good school is NOT entirely based on their PSLE results, their special brain has opened the special door for them.

Currently the top 7% is placed in the same rung as the 92% in terms of training and opportunities, hence deemed as not training as a \"thinker\" but as a \"doer\".

This top 7% now relies on parents' enrichment and likely the group who contributes the most to the enrichment business today.

While many may complain about streaming kids early and all(you cannot have your cake and eat it)....I suppose this 7% should welcome that, it is a form of filter to figure out if a different learning pedagogy+assessment is required for this group to be the next level of \"thinkers\". However, from what I know, the % may not be at 7 only, some schools take their own steps to groom this group of kids, therein lies the value-add of a school. So if MOE wants to take up the task they can (a) to standardize (b)to move it into more \"thinker\" modules instead of drilling for good grades alone, currently this is the differentiation for schools, not the branded or elite but the \"kiasu\" schools. The current efforts by the individual schools may also appear haphazard and confusing to parents, hence all the hues and cries. If MOE is willing to take this up, I am more than happy already. Having said this, the top 9-15% will become the next group to strive to be in this top 7% and the vicious chain of criticism will start all over again for MOE. :lol: :lol: :lol: Well, no criticism no progress as in no pain no gain???

If they are successful in this, they can use their experience to decide how to cascade this down to the 92% who can benefit from some required parts of the programme that is applicable to the majority.....then a well-established approach will render lesser glitches in its implementation.