Unfair treatment in Math

[verykiasu2010]

Picolo:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"skyjuice\"]In DS's school, higher ability classes learn more Math in terms of more challenging work and content. But at the end of the day, the whole level is tested on the same paper. Without doubt, lower ability classes can't handle the chellengers cos they were not taught them in the first place! I wonder if other schools experience this?

if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.[/quote]putting yourself in the position of the teacher

do you hope to get the class to achieve a good A or a good B (don't talk about A* for those near bottom classes) than to risk the whole class getting C by teaching them more challenging questions that the kids have problem dealing with ?

[verykiasu2010]

Picolo:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"skyjuice\"]In DS's school, higher ability classes learn more Math in terms of more challenging work and content. But at the end of the day, the whole level is tested on the same paper. Without doubt, lower ability classes can't handle the chellengers cos they were not taught them in the first place! I wonder if other schools experience this?

if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.[/quote]what school is that ?

[skyjuice]

verykiasu2010:

skyjuice:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

Actually, the FEW challenging questions happen to be 13 questions consisting of 60 marks, the paper 2. Out of which, 6-8 questions tend to be olympiad type-- patterns, sequences and many heuristics. These 6-8 questions easily make up 30-40 marks.

It's true that some challengers are beyond the lower ability. But I feel the schools should at least prepare them in some ways. After all, PSLE is increasing the number of challengers every year. At this rate, this cluster of kids is destined to be lower ability all the way.

Questions 1 - 35 total 50 marks
Questions 36 - 48 total 50 marks

of which

question 36 - 41 = 3 marks each, total 18 marks

question 42- 44 = 4 marks each, total 12 marks

questions 45 - 48 = 5 marks each, total 20 marks

the last 4 could be considered more challenging, but students are expected to get a few marks for steps, formula, statement even if they can't get full marks for those question

how that 6 to 8 questions can make up to 40 marks ? please check your question papers

the last 9 questions make up 32 marks, you are not expect to get zero for the 9 questions. if the kid can't get any marks for the last 9 questions, then the kid is really weak, better concentrate on the basic and don't waste time on challenging questions. sorry being blunt, the teachers' approach may not be wrong. depends on school as well[/quote]You're right. The last 4 (20marks) usually are real challengers. Qns 42-44 can also be above average. Tat's 32 marks almost gone provided the kids can earn some method marks and assuming the other qns are smoothly handled.

DS just transferred to an \"elite\" school. He was from one of the top classes in his previous school but now placed in a low ability class. He got very bored doing just the work book. No challenging sums at all. He was shocked to learn only 2, in his current class of 41, passed SA1 Math and at borderline too. Many of the kids scored below 40. I've seen that paper and it really isn't easy!

I guess it's a bit shocking as DS had always been in top classes and never seen such results before. Perhaps it's the school's way to get the kids to buck up with a tough paper? Or like Sun2010 said, the school's way to filter out the higher ability students.

Like Picolo, I've always known better classes do more. But I guess now then I feel a bit sore bearing the brunt of it. We have stepped up on his home revision cos can't depend on his class to prepare him for the SA2 if DS wants to move to a better class next year.

Just needed an outlet to let it out! Thanks folks! :stupid:

[starlight1968sg]

Higher ability kids learn more challenging probs but at the end of the "day", all kids sit the same MA paper.

Isn’t this the similar for GEP vs non GEP case?

There is nothing much we can do in this situation.

[Brenda10]

Don’t worry. Still have time so long as we work toward it. Good luck.

[buds]

skyjuice:

But I guess now then I feel a bit sore bearing the brunt of it. We have stepped up on his home revision cos can't depend on his class to prepare him for the SA2 if DS wants to move to a better class next year.


Just needed an outlet to let it out! Thanks folks! :stupid:

Dun worry, skyjuice. :hugs:
It's good to vent it out, at least you know that you're not alone.
All of us are trying to help our children the best we can and to
the best of their potential/abilities. Take care.

[Dharma]

skyjuice:

DS just transferred to an \"elite\" school. He was from one of the top classes in his previous school but now placed in a low ability class
:

Hi skyjuice,

Looks like your son has been placed in his present class because he is a new student to the school. Same thing happened to my girls when they were transferred to an all-girls school in P4.

Most the pupils in the top 2 or 3 classes get stretched a bit
more as compared to the other pupils in the school. This is quite common.

What is important is for you give your son all support and motivation he needs so that he is able to perform to the the best of his ability in SA2.

[skyjuice]

Thanks, all!

[Picolo]

verykiasu2010:

Picolo:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

putting yourself in the position of the teacher

do you hope to get the class to achieve a good A or a good B (don't talk about A* for those near bottom classes) than to risk the whole class getting C by teaching them more challenging questions that the kids have problem dealing with ?[/quote]Wow, so many updates...

Well, again, this is actually what I used to think, too. However, don't forget, in a mixed ability (aka average) class, there are always some better ones in Math (but not good enough in all subjects to join the top classes) who will become the scapegoats of the system. Of cos, it is logical for the Math Teachers to pitch at the 'average' level. Surely, the teacher is doing 'right' to pitch at the standard of the majority, right? Theoretically there's nothing wrong. But for those parents whose kids are in these classes, they need to know what's actually happening in the school system to help their kids realise their true potentials.

And really, math classes is about training thinking skills, so average students should also be given the opportunities to learn the most efficient methods of getting the correct answers. Of cos, there's not enough time to cover everything, that I understand.

[Picolo]

verykiasu2010:

Picolo:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

what school is that ?[/quote]No need to speculate which school. As you can see, not all those who shared the same view here have kids in the same school. I would say many schools operate this way, but I only realise it this year when I get to know more parents and adjunct teachers this year.