Q&A - P4 English

[Champion]

ridcully:

laughingcat:

Q1. The answer - attacks. The \"flock of geese\" is referred to as a singular group – we are not talking about each geese's direction of attack, but the direction of the flock as a whole - thus it requires the singular verb \"attacks,\" not the plural verb \"attack\".

Sorry, but your analysis is incorrect.


'Flock' is one of those group collectives that can take both singular and plural forms. The verb is singular because 'flock' is singular, not because we are thinking of the group acting as one.

The verb would be plural if the subject was 'flocks', not because we are thinking of the individual geese acting separately.

laughingcat:

\"Shall\" and \"Will\" are modal verbs and they are one of the most confuse usage.

There are 2 main uses of \"Shall\" - (1) asking what someone wants you (or person) to do or advise. (2) Another use for shall is in expressing determination or a promise.

The use of \"Will\" is used in showing someone's predictions about the future. For instance things that someone speaks or writes about before they actually happen. Also to take note that only \"Will\" can be used to show willingness.

For primary schooling, my analysis is what the students must learn.

With regard to the future, 'will' is the neutral future. The primary students also learn about other ways of looking at the future eg 'be going to', present simple and present continuous.

'Will' can also be used when making an instant decision.

Learning about 'will' beyond neutral future and instant decisions is not, I understand, in the primary syllabus. I believe that I did make this point in my earlier posting.

Rgds
R

Hi Ridcully,
Thanks for the further elaboration on the above; appreciates much :thankyou:

English is really \"big & wide\" ...There are soooooooooo...many things to learn & remember . Really appreciates all the efforts in putting what each has learnt and know at this forum for all to be aware :celebrate: ....

I am really each time I have to sit down and do English revision with DDs :nailbite: .....So, Rule 1 - Mummy learns first and fast then can coach

[ridcully]

Champion, you're welcome!


Yes, role-modelling learning yourself is an excellent example to set the kids.

More power to you!

:celebrate:

[laughingcat]

ridcully:

laughingcat:

Q1. The answer - attacks. The \"flock of geese\" is referred to as a singular group – we are not talking about each geese's direction of attack, but the direction of the flock as a whole - thus it requires the singular verb \"attacks,\" not the plural verb \"attack\".

Sorry, but your analysis is incorrect.


'Flock' is one of those group collectives that can take both singular and plural forms. The verb is singular because 'flock' is singular, not because we are thinking of the group acting as one.

The verb would be plural if the subject was 'flocks', not because we are thinking of the individual geese acting separately.

Yes you are right that collective nouns can be taken as both singular and plural form. But I did not mentioned that all collective nouns must be taken as singular. What I meant that there is a common direction taken by the flock of geese and that explains why the usage of singular verbs.
I believe my assessment is correct. Take for instance on the following:-

Example #1:- The shoal was moving north.
(singular - considered as one unit; 'shoal' is considered singular)

Example #2:- The shoal were darting in all directions.
(plural - considered as individuals; the shoal is considered as lots of individuals, and 'shoal' is considered plural.)

ridcully:

laughingcat:

\"Shall\" and \"Will\" are modal verbs and they are one of the most confuse usage.

There are 2 main uses of \"Shall\" - (1) asking what someone wants you (or person) to do or advise. (2) Another use for shall is in expressing determination or a promise.

The use of \"Will\" is used in showing someone's predictions about the future. For instance things that someone speaks or writes about before they actually happen. Also to take note that only \"Will\" can be used to show willingness.

For primary schooling, the students learn that 'will' is the neutral future. The primary students also learn about other ways of looking at the future eg 'be going to', present simple and present continuous.

'Will' can also be used when making an instant decision.

Learning about 'will' beyond neutral future and instant decisions is not, I understand, in the primary syllabus.

Rgds
R

What I am explaining here is for parents to know before teaching to children. Not exatly targeting for primary schoolers.

[phtthp]

hi Champion,


the book 'First Aid in English' is available in 'Singapore Polytechnic' library:-

http://www.lib.sp.edu.sg/search~S0?/Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=/Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=&SUBKEY=first%20aid%20in%20english/1%2C6%2C6%2CB/frameset&FF=Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=&1%2C1%2C

[laughingcat]

Champion:

Hello laughingcat :hi5: ,

I went Popular in the afternoon but was unable to get hold of the textbook for The New First Aid In English by Angus Maciver :sad: . The sales who attended to me (look a bit :? ) when I showed her the cover picture of this book I am looking for and said she has never seen it before! :scratchhead:

Anyway, it was very crowded so I guessed she has no much time \"entertaining\" my queries :wrongmove: ......

Nevertheless, I will try to source from Times Bookstore or other bigger bookstores .

p.s. your explanation is always so clear and precise :salute: :salute: :thankyou:

WOW! Champion you are really fast! :evil: Try calling the popular first and see whether can they advise you which branch has the book. This book is usually sold out quite fast. Or you can place a reservation.

Thanks. Actually I have learnt all of this at the British Council. There are a total of 8 lessons and the duration is whole day and is meant for teachers. If there is one, I would strongly advise parents to go. It is quite good as it teaches the technical aspect. I attended this early last year through a school principal who helped to enrolled me in.

[ridcully]

laughingcat:

What I meant that there is a common direction taken by the flock of geese and that explains why the usage of singular verbs.

I believe my assessment is correct. Take for instance on the following:-

Example #1:- The shoal was moving north.
(singular - considered as one unit; 'shoal' is considered singular)

Example #2:- The shoal were darting in all directions.
(plural - considered as individuals; the shoal is considered as lots of individuals, and 'shoal' is considered plural.)

Once again, you are wrong. By definition, a shoal is a large number of fish swimming as a group. We can say:

The shoal was moving north. [one shoal]
The shoals were moving north. [several shoals]

In addition, those group collective nouns that take singular or plural verbs depending on how we view them mostly refer to humans, because we usually give agency to people, not animals. Thus:

The committee is presenting its findings. [acting as one]
The committee are arguing among themselves. [individuals within the group]

And...
The committees are established by statue. [several committees]

laughingcat:

What I am explaining here is for parents to know before teaching to children. Not exatly targeting for primary schoolers.

I see. It is for the reader to judge whether you are illuminating the issues.

Nevertheless, it is encouraging that you actively participate. Your mistakes help me to crystallise issues for others, so I thank you for that.

Rgds
R

[teh_oh]

ridcully and laughingcat and all,

Thanks for the explanation.

[smartmummy]

phtthp:

hi Champion,


the book 'First Aid in English' is available in 'Singapore Polytechnic' library:-

http://www.lib.sp.edu.sg/search~S0?/Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=/Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=&SUBKEY=first%20aid%20in%20english/1%2C6%2C6%2CB/frameset&FF=Xfirst+aid+in+english&p=&SORT=D&Da=&Db=&1%2C1%2C

Hi phtthp!
Can we access (outsiders) this library?Is this find NUS library?

[usaik]

Hi,

I need some guidance and advice here and hope someone could help.

(1) Lying on the grass, we could see the clouds floating (above/in front of) us.

(2) Our house is (in/on/by) Whampoa Road.

(3) If you search (through/along/on/across) the beach, you will find some interesting shells.

(4) The man has been loitering (outside/by) the school gate since this morning.

(5) That is my sister walking (to/from/towards/beside) us.

In addition, anyone know of a good preposition guide/reference book to recommend?

Thank you so much.

[ridcully]

usaik:

(1) Lying on the grass, we could see the clouds floating (above/in front of) us.

Ans: above

Normally, grass does not ascend to the sky nor do the clouds descend to the ground; thus, 'in front of' is ruled out.

usaik:

(2) Our house is (in/on/by) Whampoa Road.

Ans: on
Use 'in' for land areas eg Our house is in Toa Payoh.
Use 'on' for names of streets.
Use 'by' when you are saying something is next to something.
Use 'at' for specific address eg Our house is at 31E Whampoa Road.

usaik:

(3) If you search (through/along/on/across) the beach, you will find some interesting shells.

Ans: along
'Along' expresses the idea of movement following a line. Think of the beach as being a two-dimensional line.

usaik:

(4) The man has been loitering (outside/by) the school gate since this morning.

Ans: outside
'Outside' expresses the idea of milling around. 'By' more implies a fixed position.

usaik:

(5) That is my sister walking (to/from/towards/beside) us.

Ans: towards
'Towards' expresses the idea of direction of movement rather than result of movement.

usaik:

In addition, anyone know of a good preposition guide/reference book to recommend?

The preposition books, or chapters in grammar books, for primary children are pretty much all equally bad. I would recommend using an Advanced Learner's Dictionary, such as Oxford or Collins. These dictionaries contain detailed information about prepositions. In addition, they explain when a word is used as an adverb or other word class rather than as a preposition.

Hope that helps.
R