Bi-lingualism at school a mistake ?

[tamarind]

[quote]
Look at the threads on Chinese and English enrichment in this forum, 35+ pages for the former and less than 7 in aggregate for the latter. [/quote]It is not correct to use the number of pages in forum threads to judge the difficulty of learning a language.

The vast majority of Singaporean parents who find English difficult to learn, do not know how to post in internet forums. Even if the families have internet access, the parents are not good enough in English to be able to write in forums.

The government should really do a survey to find out how many Singaporeans are really good in English or Chinese.

If English is really so easy to learn, why is it that we cannot get anyone better than Miss Ris Low to represent us as Miss Singapore ?

[tamarind]

insider:

tamarind:

If English is really so easy to learn, why is it that we cannot get anyone better than Miss Ris Low to represent us in the Miss Singapore ?

Hahaha...Ris Low... wondering will she flare better if she speaks in Mandarin...

http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20091008-172429.html

I have never heard her speak in mandarin, hopefully it is not so bad since her parents are Chinese educated.

[Busymom]

If you ask me, I think bilingualism favours those who takes Malay as MT in school. Perhpas it is a misconception, but I have being told Malay is easier to learn than it is for non-English speaker to learn English or for non-Chinese speaker to learn Chinese.


I can imagine how difficult it is for those who do not come from Chinese-speaking background to learn Chinese. One has to learn the correct strokes of each word, and it doesn’t help that some words have the same pronunciation and look almost the same, but mean different things.

The same goes for learning English if you do not come from an English-speaking background. There are many different grammar rules, words don’t spell the way they sound, plural noun vs singular noun, etc. The only reason why this is less obvious to some of us, is that it is masked by many factors. Even if your family does not speak English, almost all subjects are taught in English in school, most pupils speak in English in school these days, more TV programs (at least for the educational ones or cartoon) are in English than in Chinese, etc. So if exposure is different, one can’t be that poor in English, can he?

I came from a pure Hokkien (and a little Mandarin) background. At home, I did not have any exposure to English TV programs even when I was young. There was hardly any English story books at home (my first book or comics was probably Doraemon comics in complicated Chinese) and I remembered I had to take my own initiatives to learn the 26 letters in the alphabet before starting primary one… Primary school was a neighbourhood school where everyone spoke in Mandarin, other than the teachers teaching English, Maths and Science. My exposure to English was so little/so bad that when I went for Grade 2 piano exam (either in P2 or 3) I could not understand what the UK examiner was asking me during the oral test…

At PSLE, I did well enough to sit for the GEP test. Guess what, we were only tested for English and Maths. The English paper was difficult for me; I couldn’t remember a paper where there were so many words that I did not understand. Needless to say, I didn’t get into GEP (not that it mattered). However, what I was really upset about, was that I did not get the opportunity to study a 3rd language, simply because I did not have an A* for English. Another classmate whose aggregate score was lower than mine and had lesser number of A*, was given the chance.

So you tell me, is this fair?

[Busymom]

I have nothing against bilingualism. I think it deserves more credit than one would have given after reading recent news and the posts here. We speak better English than many non-native English speakers. Many people in UK and US are surprised with the level of English proficiency among Singaporeans. Yes, our commercial Chinese may be laughable in the ears of native Chinese in PRC and elsewhere, but we do not have much problem when it comes to conversational Chinese. In the case of commercial Chinese, it is not a surprise as all our subjects from primary to university are taught in English. Economics, Finance, Law, Accountancy, so on and so forth; how many of us know the Chinese equivalent of diminishing marginal utility or net present value or undue influence, to name but just a few?


At least I am proud of the fact that I am understood by native Chinese and English speakers wherever I am, and I definitely have an advantage in a situation where there are two parties in the same room, one party can’t speak English well while the other can’t speak Chinese.

[tamarind]

[quote]
One has to learn the correct strokes of each word, and it doesn't help that some words have the same pronunciation and look almost the same, but mean different things. [/quote]busymom,
I used to think so too. But when my kids started to learn Chinese at 4 years old, they never complain that they have to remember the strokes of each word. I think kids at this age look at words as a whole, they recognize the shape of each word rather than individual strokes. I have also heard some parents saying that their kids do not need to learn phonics to read English, they read by remembering sight words, which means that they remember the shape of the words instead of the individual letters.

That is why it is very important to start teaching Chinese characters from 3 years old, and not later than 4 years old.

I agree that it is not fair for a student not to be given the opportunity to study a 3rd language just because she did not get A* for English. For the Japanese language, a student who knows Chinese very well actually has an advantage because the similarities of the 2 languages.

[quote]Yes, our commercial Chinese may be laughable in the ears of native Chinese in PRC and elsewhere, but we do not have much problem when it comes to conversational Chinese.[/quote]I have heard of mainland Chinese and Taiwanese laughing at our conversational Chinese. There was a Taiwanese variety show where the guests laughed at our spoken English. Watch this video to find out what other people think about our English :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYuIg7Tnc7g

I am sure there are many Singaporeans who speak perfect English, but the majority of Singaporeans do not and that is why people from other countries have this impression of us.

[Busymom]

It was in fact Japanese that I had chosen...

tamarind:

That is why it is very important to start teaching Chinese characters from 3 years old, and not later than 4 years old.

This, I fully agree with you. As parents, we need to do our part, be it in creating an environment at home for learning a language or sending the children to the \"right\" school that has the right environment.

tamarind:

I have heard of mainland Chinese and Taiwanese laughing at our conversational Chinese. There was a Taiwanese variety show where the guests laughed at our spoken English. Watch this video to find out what other people think about our English :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYuIg7Tnc7g

I am sure there are many Singaporeans who speak perfect English, but the majority of Singaporeans do not and that is why people from other countries have this impression of us.

First of all, we need to remember this is Taiwan and their variety shows would stop at nothing just to spin a laugh to up their viewership. I have come across a Taiwanese entertainment talk show hosted by 2 guys (shown late at night on Channel U) and once this guy was trying to read a passage in English and I heard with horror the English that was sprouting from his mouth. They should really be laughing at their own kind instead of criticising the average salesmen or salesgirls in another country for their spoken English/Mandarin. In fact, we have so many work-permit holders working in the service industry. Who knows exactly if these employees are from Malaysian, PRC or Philippines?? Even if they are Singaporeans, who knows if they had actually finish schools (I don't mean to imply that anyone who is in the service industry are not good in their studies or whatever. Just trying to make a point that we can't expect someone who did not finish his primary/secondary school education to speak perfect English.) For this group of people, English is just like any other foreign language.

Every country has its accent, hence we have American accent, British accent, Australian accent, etc. Does it mean that, other than British accent, we all ought to laugh at American and Australian accent? The fact that we do not speak with the so-called western accent is nothing to be ashamed of. As a percentage, I'm pretty sure we have a higher percentage of the population who speak proper or better English as compared to those 2 countries that you mentioned. In the course of my work, I deal with professionals working in large corporations. Yet, I hardly come across non-native English speakers (especially in North Asia) who can express themselves clearly in English when they need to explain something that is complicated. When I am in those countries, I don't see people in the service industry being able to comprehend much English or speak it as a matter of fact. Any concern with accent in those instances would be a luxury to me.

[tamarind]

[quote]
Every country has its accent, hence we have American accent, British accent, Australian accent, etc. Does it mean that, other than British accent, we all ought to laugh at American and Australian accent?[/quote]Actually it is not about accent. Many Singaporeans have problems with pronunciation, and especially grammar. I used to work in an American MNC for 9 years. We had to hold regularly conferences with Americans every week. I used to get goosebumps when I listened to some of my Singaporean colleagues, speak English to American. The Americans are too polite to criticize us. Actually my American colleagues told me that they all had to attend courses to learn how to be sensitive to people from different countries

I know an expat mommy from Australia who tried to look for a pre-school in Singapore for her little girl. She complained that the teachers in local pre-schools speak like kopitiam aunties. She would rather pay much more to put her girl in pre-schools that have native English speakers.

I have been teaching hundreds of students above 17 years old. Whenever we set maths questions with more than 5 English statements, more than 50% of the students gave up and do not attempt that question because they cannot read and understand it.

I agree that most Singaporeans can speak English fluently and most can be understood by native English speakers. But what most of us are speaking is not English, it is Singlish, with our own type of pronunciation and grammar. I myself also do not speak or write perfect English. But at least I know my own standard.

I am not saying that all Singaporeans are very bad in English or Chinese. My point is that most of us are not good enough and there is no reason to be proud of ourselves. I feel that MOE can do much more to improve both our English and Chinese, by employing more native speakers, in both English and Chinese, to teach our kids in government schools.

[Philosophical_Anarchist]

3Boys:

Ask yourself, what is the reality in modern day Singapore. Native Chinese speakers who are hindered in their ability to learn Math and Science, or native English speakers who commit excessive amounts of time to cover their bases in Chinese? What you fail to consider is that the difficulty in learning Chinese and English is not equal. Look at the threads on Chinese and English enrichment in this forum, 35+ pages for the former and less than 7 in aggregate for the latter. Whatever your theories about fixed amount vs everything under the sun, which do you think is presenting the greater challenge in general, Chinese or English? And you are confusing favouritism for the sake of a language with what is a deliberate policy of setting forth the primacy of English as the language of business and lingua-franca amongst diverse ethnicities. In that context, why on Earth have a GEP test in mother tongue?

I don't think your contention is borne out at all by the situation on the ground, and I see nothing, even if empirical, put forth to support it.

The GEP test is a test to discover if a person is gifted in languages or maths. If he is truely gifted, then his talent should be nurtured. However, the English GEP test only serves to develop the talents of the English speaker who may or may not be gifted, neglecting those of the non-English speakers.

Are you familiar with the Primary School syllabus? For the English syllabus, there is no fixed vocabulary list or grammar list for students to work with, unlike that of Chinese. At least, those taking the Chinese exams know what they will be tested on for vocabulary and probably grammar. Here is a Primary One question from one of my students' paper.
I saw a _________ of penguins.

1) Herd
2) Parcel
3) Ambush
4) Shoal

And I understand the political purposes of the bilingual policy. However, my argument about this policy is that the policy is more suited to one group than another. And regarding empirical evidence. Do you even think that the government will make available to the public any figures or statistics that can be used to criticise it?

I'll give you plus points for throwing the burden of proof to me though.

[mrswongtuition]

insider:

She said she didn't really have to break down the words but more on 'taking a photo' of each word and her brain will capture the letters..

Your girl is a visual person. She's like me. When I study, I don't really read the content. I simply 'take a photo' of the pages in my textbook/notes. During exams, I'm able to close my eyes and 'flip' my books/notes to get the content. It helps better when key words/points are highlighted in the book when I revise.

I only discovered this when I was in S3. Maximised it & my grades improved alot from there. Moved on to Poly (due to interest) and was the top student of my course. Went on to NTU/NIE & continued to top the course

That's why I can read Chinese words & recognise them. But I was too lazy to practise writing, so I can't write

[daisyt]

This is on today CNA website. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1018826/1/.html


SINGAPORE: Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew said his insistence on bilingualism in the early years of education policy was \"wrong\". Instead it caused generations of students to be put off by the Chinese language.

Speaking first in Mandarin and then in English at the official opening of the Singapore Centre for Chinese Language on Tuesday, Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew gave a blunt assessment of Singapore's bilingual policy.

He said: \"We started the wrong way. We insisted on ting xie (listening), mo xie (dictation) - madness! We had teachers who were teaching in completely-Chinese schools. And they did not want to use any English to teach English-speaking children Chinese and that turned them off completely.\"

Mr Lee added: \"At first I thought, you can master two languages. Maybe different intelligence, you master it at different levels.\"

But his conclusions now, after over 40 years of learning Mandarin, cannot be more different.

MM Lee said: \"Nobody can master two languages at the same level. If (you think) you can, you're deceiving yourself. My daughter is a neurologist, and late in my life she told me language ability and intelligence are two different things.

\"Girls are better at languages because their left side of the brain to learn languages, as a general rule, is better than the boys. Boys have great difficulty, and I had great difficulty.

\"Successive generations of students paid a heavy price, because of my ignorance, by my insistence on bilingualism. And I wasn't helped by the ministry officials, because there were two groups - one English speaking, one Chinese teaching.\"

Mr Lee said educators should first get the child interested in the language by focusing on the way it is heard and spoken. This includes incorporating drama and IT into lessons to make them more engaging.

Mr Lee said: \"It doesn't matter what level they reach, they will like the language, it's fun, and later on in life they'll use it.\"

The need to make the Chinese language more appealing to students has been a focus of the Education Ministry in recent years and one way is to re-examine how the language is taught in schools.

So the new centre set up in February to train Chinese language teachers will soon offer degree programmes that include modules on curriculum design and teaching methods.

The programmes will be offered under four agreements that were formalised on Tuesday. They include a part-time degree for preschool teachers under a partnership with the SEED Institute, a training institute for early childhood educators.

Tan Chee Lay, deputy executive director, Singapore Centre for Chinese Language, said: \"For students to learn, the golden age is from three to six. So in this period of time, if we're able to teach them well, they'll learn well and their language foundation will be there.\"

Other partners are the Media Development Authority (MDA), SIM University (UniSIM), and the University of Hong Kong.

There are over 4,000 Chinese-language teachers here and about a quarter of them have been trained by the centre so far. - CNA/vm