Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Edureach]

Chenonceau:

I think I should stop posting before I get too excited and offend people. I think it is a waste of time to post anyway. MOE has had feedback from 2008 in many forms and from people wiser and smarter than I... it doesn't want to change because it is too busy justifying itself to care that a nation's children are hurting.


Nothing against you Edureach...

I value you as a good contributor and a friendly force. I never take offence in any of your posting. :rahrah:

[Chenonceau]

Edureach:

Whether a student study in top schools or neighbourhood schools do no mean anything at this juncture. Eventually all takes the same 0 and A-levels exams. That's no such thing as a certificate awarded by a top school is more recognised than another even by our unis.

If it doesn't mean anything... why differentiate?

Edureach:

At the end of the day, it depends on individual merits than the schools.

What is individual merit? The school plays no part in defining a child's results (the usual proxy for individual merit)? Your school taught you nothing as you were growing up? You were born knowing all that you know and that is your individual merit?

Edureach:

Coming to maths standard, the standards set by high schools in PRC and Vietnam are not lower than our A-level standard.

True... but my friends in China tell me that though standards are high, the schools are able to teach to those standards before they test. I have taught my son. I believe that PSLE standards though high... are within the grasp of our normal children.

However, I have evidence to show that my son's school was not able (and indeed, did not) teach to the standard they expect of him. His English Teacher can't spell... makes terrible grammar errors in sentence construction... His Math Teacher does not explain questions when asked, saying \"We have not yet covered it\"... and then the same question appears in the exam 2 weeks later.

Edureach:

So what's wrong to move our standard up? The big problem here is parents hope to use their kids school results to gain dsa to top schools.

I have never said it was wrong to move standards up. I repeat here that having taught my son, I think the PSLE standard is within the grasp of the average kid BUT... you cannot move up the standards you expect of the kids, BEFORE you move up the standards of your own teaching. Right now, standards are far beyond what the primary school teachers are able to teach to... and so PhDs like me have to stay home and run a 1-person school... like many other highly qualified KSP Moms. Wouldn't all these women be of greater use in the workforce than running a 1-person school at home because MOE doesn't teach to the standards it tests?

Teach to the standards you test so that parents need not step into your gap. If PSLE tests to Sec 3 standards Math, then all schools should be able to teach to that JUST IN CASE there is even ONE kid in a forgotten school who CAN cope with Sec 3 material but is NOT taught because has NO tuition.

Edureach:

If a top school will to set a difficult exam paper as opposed to a much easier one by a neighbourhood school, eventually, the students from a lesser school will need to face the music. Do not let the school results determine the academic outcome as the relevant national exams shall have the final say.

And so the poor poor child in that school that sets easy exams will end up in ITE even if smart?

Edureach:

In ns and work places, there are plenty of opportunities for people of different abilities to mix together. No worries.

Of course, and by then, the window for social and emotional education is over. I do know of an EDB scholar awarded this year who truly believes that the rest of the world is inferior to her and her classmates... and thinks that getting into NUS Law is no big deal. She is the top (or there somewhere) even in the top school, you see.

[Chenonceau]

Edureach:

Chenonceau:

I think I should stop posting before I get too excited and offend people. I think it is a waste of time to post anyway. MOE has had feedback from 2008 in many forms and from people wiser and smarter than I... it doesn't want to change because it is too busy justifying itself to care that a nation's children are hurting.


Nothing against you Edureach...

I value you as a good contributor and a friendly force. I never take offence in any of your posting. :rahrah:

Thank you... that is good to know. I have thus permitted myself to respond again. But I have to tear myself away and do things that aren't hopeless and a waste of time. MOE may read but will not understand.

[coast]

Chenonceau:

I think I should stop posting before I get too excited and offend people. I think it is a waste of time to post anyway. MOE has had feedback from 2008 in many forms and from people wiser and smarter than I... it doesn't want to change because it is too busy justifying itself to care that a nation's children are hurting.


Nothing against you Edureach...

My heart sank when I read the extracted post from blinkymummy.blogspot.com.

But after a while, I think perhaps she wrote what she did as she primarily thought that \"kids with aptitude who are hard working\" can make it in our current education system.

Although she mentioned \"There are many many parents out there who are willing to invest dollars and hours of grilling, tuition, supplementary classes etc in/for their kids to get that 'A'.\", it might not have occurred to her that DOLLARS mean that it is no longer a level playing field.

For parents who said that their kids are doing well without tuition/ enrichment, are there external coaching (parents, relatives, ...)? Are their kids in a school that provides quality education (yes, good schools/ teachers do exist and I respect these dedicated teachers who are passionate in teaching every kid under their care)

Students with access to \"quality\" help/ resources have so much advantages over the have-nots.

We get disheartened because we know there are many kids out there who do not get a fair chance at all even if they are bright.

All these talks and emphasis on social mobility by our government and yet MOE does not seem to equate the lack of it in today's education system ...

[coast]

Edureach:

Chenonceau


Whether a student study in top schools or neighbourhood schools do not mean anything at this juncture. Eventually all take the same 0 and A-levels exams. That's no such thing as a certificate awarded by a top school is more recognised than another even by our unis.

At the end of the day, it depends on individual merits than the schools.

It matters. What is the average grade of top schools Vs neighbourhood schools in O levels? What is the average grade of top JCs Vs other schools in A levels?

[Edureach]

coast:

Edureach:

Chenonceau


Whether a student study in top schools or neighbourhood schools do not mean anything at this juncture. Eventually all take the same 0 and A-levels exams. That's no such thing as a certificate awarded by a top school is more recognised than another even by our unis.

At the end of the day, it depends on individual merits than the schools.

It matters. What is the average grade of top schools Vs neighbourhood schools in O levels? What is the average grade of top JCs Vs other schools in A levels?

It boils down to the high quality of students intake by top schools. There's so far no concrete evidence that a high O-level scorer does better in a top jc as oppossed to studying in a mid-tier jc.

[Sun_2010]

coast:

Students with access to \"quality\" help/ resources have so much advantages over the have-nots.

We get disheartened because we know there are many kids out there who do not get a fair chance at all even if they are bright.

All these talks and emphasis on social equality by our government and yet MOE does not seem to equate the lack of it in today's education system ...

This is the crux of the issue.

Many of us here know that changes if any will be too late to impact our children, anyway we are capable of helping out our children. Yet we voice out to tell that this is not meritocracy. A child brighter and more capable than my child will lose out if he doesnt have a mum me to guide him thru. I dont want to do this, but it is a norm that teachers even expect. This system beneifts me since i am capable but sooner or later we have to look at the big picture.

Look at Chen, she will be saying bye bye to PSLE soon, and she perseveres. :salute:

Can the MOE atleast take a confidential feed back from its teachers?
Can they get them to assess how tution/enrichment is being essential, of how it is skewing the picture? if Today can do it, cant MOE?

[coast]

Edureach:

coast:

[quote=\"Edureach\"]Chenonceau


Whether a student study in top schools or neighbourhood schools do not mean anything at this juncture. Eventually all take the same 0 and A-levels exams. That's no such thing as a certificate awarded by a top school is more recognised than another even by our unis.

At the end of the day, it depends on individual merits than the schools.

It matters. What is the average grade of top schools Vs neighbourhood schools in O levels? What is the average grade of top JCs Vs other schools in A levels?

It boils down to the high quality of students intake by top schools. There's so far no concrete evidence that a high O-level scorer does better in a top jc as oppossed to studying in a mid-tier jc.[/quote]So we agree that top schools do matter (for O levels). Then how do students get into top sec schools? Primarily PSLE, right? Then it is back to:-

Students with access to \"quality\" help/ resources have so much advantages over the have-nots.

[Nebbermind]

Chenonceau:

I think I should stop posting before I get too excited and offend people. I think it is a waste of time to post anyway. MOE has had feedback from 2008 in many forms and from people wiser and smarter than I... it doesn't want to change because it is too busy justifying itself to care that a nation's children are hurting.


Nothing against you Edureach...

Yeah...can imagine Edureach driving someone BONKERS!!! :evil:

[coast]

Sun_2010:

coast:

Students with access to \"quality\" help/ resources have so much advantages over the have-nots.

We get disheartened because we know there are many kids out there who do not get a fair chance at all even if they are bright.

All these talks and emphasis on social equality by our government and yet MOE does not seem to equate the lack of it in today's education system ...

This is the crux of the issue.

Many of us here know that changes if any will be too late to impact our children, anyway we are capable of helping out our children. Yet we voice out to tell that this is not meritocracy. A child brighter and more capable than my child will lose out if he doesnt have a mum me to guide him thru. I dont want to do this, but it is a norm that teachers even expect. This system beneifts me since i am capable but sooner or later we have to look at the big picture.

Look at Chen, she will be saying bye bye to PSLE soon, and she perseveres. :salute:

Can the MOE atleast take a confidential feed back from its teachers?
Can they get them to assess how tution/enrichment is being essential, of how it is skewing the picture? if Today can do it, cant MOE?

You are right. Even if it's status quo, I am sure my DS will do well in PSLE. But it's not right even if it works for some of us who can afford ($, time, capability). We voice out because there are many others who can't. Schools should teach all kids well and not pass the responsibility to parents/ tuition/ enrichment because they cannot cope with the current syllabus with their resources (adequate materials, class ratio, ...).