Asia spending billions on tutors: study
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ksi:
Meaning, the parents who shared about irresponsible teachers are lying?There has been no concrete evidence on the root of the issue yet as we mostly agreed on that. So I hope in the absence of hard evidence, we should discuss from that perspective.
Can anyone stand out and say, there is not a single bad apples in the teaching profession?
Can I ask you one thing..
If, there is 1 % of bad apples in the plantation. We witness it, it is true, the apples are rotten/with holes. The root cause? unknown.
However, it could be the insects, it could be the birds. it could be the soil.
So, someone suggest that perhaps putting up nets to guard against the birds or insects could help.
We know, birds peck at apples.. we know, insects attack apples. But, we do NOT know if our bad apples is caused by birds or insects. So we put up a safety net as \"insurance\". What is wrong with this \"insurance\"?
So, maybe, the soil is the root of the problem. But, by putting up nets, we can guard against birds and insect which may not be the cause of the problem NOW. But it could develop into one later.
If, there is a perceived flaw in the policies that could lead to potential harm (no data, not proven, but the potential is there). Isn't it prudence to plug the flaw?
I'm not ranting about tuition now, I am just interested to hear from you, what is your opinion of the above example. -
Musings:
DS school (true-blue neighborhood school)
Hi I must caveat that my DS is only in P1 and my actual experience is limited to that. But so far for P1 kids in my DS school, there are vendors coming in to cover core curriculum subjects although the 'positioning' from the school is that it is for 'enrichment'.oxyleo:
Hi Musings,
Just curious. From your observation, are the external vendors coming in assisting on enrichment material and leadership skills etc ? Or is it pertaining to school curriculum material specifically?
Currently, my son's school has external vendors coming in more for the following:
(1) music enrichment
(2) 儿歌 lessons for p1 and p2
(3) Maths think tank
(4) Adam Khoo leadership/ motivation workshop
Thanks in advance.
Egs are
a. Maths Heuristics
b. English creative writing
c. Chinese word recognition
d. Chinese speech and drama (not sure if this is considered academic or non academic but the school make clear this will help the kids in 'Show and Tell' part of the school curriculum)
Other non academic courses are:
b. International chess
c. Chinese dance
d. Table tennis
e. Badminton
I believe there are similar programs for the other levels of students in my DS school.
Initially, I was a bit surprised that the school 'outsource' so many programs both academic and non academic. I don't recall this happening in my time. Then I heard from friends etc that this is happening in almost every school and generally parents find these useful. It's just that Edusave may not be sufficient if the parent choose to sign the child up for multiple courses. But I think schools are mindful of the kids from lower income groups and will work out some arrangement if the kid is unable to afford.
School will partner with some magazine distributors for bulk discount (believe many schools doing so, but just the difference in range of magazines. Some are mandatory, some are optional. Range in his school :--
a. Little Red Dot
b. Reader Digest
c. The common chinese magazines 大拇指，知识画报 etc
d. Maths Venture (optional)
e. Young Scientist (optional)
Being weak in academics, the school also offers a number of academic programmes.
a. Maths *
b. Science *
c. English creative writing
d. Chinese writing
e. Speech and drama
For Maths and Sci, the school break up into 2 categories....the more challenging for the top 3 classes, and supplementary for remaining classes. These are optional
AND for kids from lower income groups eg. FAS, typically they pay only 10-20% of the cost (so while I pay >$100, they pay $12. I have no issue at all with that and in fact I'm glad there are schemes to help them.
NOW, my transferred DD's school is a totally different story.
There are external programmes, but it's incorporated into part of their CCAs like those enterpreneur, arts etc....
Academics.....only see it during competition. Eg. NMOS - They would shortlist some students and those will receive some training - payable.
Otherwise, the whole school allocate 1 day / week (different level different days) for supplementary/remedial lessons conducted by their own teachers.
In my opinion, I believe MOE has schemes to help the students esp the lower income. But the running of such programmes are really school-specific, and should be left to the school to manage based on their students' profile.
DS school is pretty relax......from the chats I have from some parents, the feeling I have is....average kids/non-kiasu parents dun bother to tuition.....it's really the borderline/failing kids doing it. The other end are the top kids cos' their aim would be to do well in PSLE and get into better schools eg. my son :oops:
DD school is xiong....esp. the better classes. I heard the papers are tough, I heard their workload is heavy, I heard they are very concerned with academics.....but yet I have made my choice. I will have to manage whatever comes along......NOT choose & then complain and blame when my child cannot handle it. I took the risk/chance.....either DD make it, be stretched to her potential (if it's really what I imagine it to be), OR be an average student there OR I will transfer her out again if the choice was really bad for her. I take responsibility. Tuition/Enrichment or not, again up to me to decide as it all depends if I can accept her existing grades and up to where do I want her to be....which include the tradeoff such as no time to play, less rest etc.
I know of a parent.....her DD was on par with my gal during P1/P2. After which their gap started pulling apart as they progressed to higher level....the parent sent her for tuition from P2/3...all subjects and some subjects to 2 different tutors/tuition centre. Academics alone, that poor girl is attending 7 sessions a week....and she has ballet & piano as well. Semester after semester, the mom compared the 2 kids and lament over how come the gap grew.....complained the T is no good, complain the tuition not good etc etc etc.
The recent NMOS, the parent was again complaining something must be wrong, flaw with marking etc cos' her girl didn't make it to 2nd round but another girl who scored lower in school exam made it. :slapshead:
Tuition because school teacher not doing their job??? Nay, may not be true all the times........parents.....
One more irony.....that parent was complaining about a particular teacher not teaching well (in a particular subject) last year, her DD score slipped. That teacher left and joined a tuition agency and one of her students top the subject in school this SA1. The parent quit another tution to join this ex-Teacher. :skeptical: -
Busymom:
1. I agree this KPI is not workable. There is no span of control by the teacher over what additional help children are getting outside the school.
There were. Maybe you didn't see the comments.limlim:
I just talk about ways that could improve the quality of education offered by MOE, and also measures to reduce the negative effects of excessive unnecessary tuition.
No one engages the points directly, or challenge the harm of regulating the industry, but at best come up with terms like \"nanny state\".
Sure, if SG is not a nanny state, why set up CRA?
First, your suggestion about linking the no. of students who go for enrichment/tuition to the school principal/teachers' KPI. Someone posted the comment that this would not capture the whole picture as there will always be those who have stay-at-home parents/grandparents to help coach or enrich the child. That is a valid point. If this is to be linked to KPI, it has to be fair measure and capture the whole picture, not just a segment of it. If I am a teacher and my KPI is linked to such a criteria, an unfair one in my view (since even if I teach the kids passionately and properly, I can't stop parents who may still want to send their children for more enrichment), I probably wouldn't want to make teaching a career to begin with.
Second, your suggestion that MOE should not allow its teachers to moonlight. While I agree that too much moonlighting may interfere with one's duties in school, isn't there already some restriction imposed by MOE on this as posted by someone earlier (Jedamum I think), like not exceeding a certain no. of hours per week? So is your position one of (i) the restriction is too lax; (ii) there is evidence teachers are flouting the restriction; or (iii) there shouldn't be any moonlighting by school teachers, period? If your position is (iii), what right does MOE have to tell its teachers that they are not suppose to moonlight? It is one's livelihood afterall.
Third, your suggestion about regulating advertisements by the tuition/enrichment centres. That to me should be caveat emptor. Not that it is not good for us consumers for advertisements to be regulated, etc., but have you thought of the consequence of this? This so-called protection for the sonsumer has to be extended to what else and stop at where? Being a nanny state in some aspects does not mean that people ought to be protected to the extreme for everything. Your comparing tuition to gambling is totally off balance, to be blunt about it. One has obvious consequence to the society, the other...? I am still scratching my head and you never reply to that question except for two words, nanny state. Why don't you try to answer this question for once?
2. Strictly speaking, this allowance of a limited hours of moonlighting has a conflict of interest. I cite an example here. A teacher teaches at a well known tuition centre. Some children from the school attend this centre. This same teacher teaches the same children in school as well. The teacher may also be the exam paper setter. Say, majority of the tuition kids perform well. Then it becomes a point of discussion whether the teacher gave extra hints to the tuition kids but in reality it might just be because they spent more time on that subject due to the tuition. It becomes an unnecessary debate for the teacher and doubts are cast. In the commercial world, most companies will allow moonlighting if livelihood is an issue but not doing the same work. For example, if one works in banking, one can be a lecturer for banking in the night or even give tuition in Math, then there is no conflict of interest.
3. I do not think the control on advertisements would work either. Just like after a few near-death accounts of people are reported after consuming diet pills, I see diet pills are still selling well.
To be candid, both gambling and heavy tuition nation have consequence to the society, only high impact or low impact and when. One is more immediate, the other needs another 10-15 years to see the outcome. We have to wait, but if we want to extrapolate, we can see it in Japan, China, HK and perhaps even Korea which are all ahead of the curve than us. Hence, you are right to say gambling has an obvious consequence.
One thing I want to congratulate Singapore with this tuition nation phenomenon in a positive way is, I can say, \"We have arrived!!\"
Only world-class CITIES in Asia has this similar education syndrome, look around. We have indeed grown up from our kampong days! 
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Musings:
I think this is already happening in many schools. Fees can be paid for by Edusave so effectively it is free for students.BlurDad:
4. What are the possible / practical solutions? In my opinion:
a) MOE/Schools can leverage on selected external vendors (tuition centers) to complement their supplementary classes for weaker students by subsidizing heavily (according to kids' household income) the fees - this will help the teachers (who may be overly-stretched by schools' KPIs, multiple roles demanding of them) and assist those low income kids who genuinely need assistance.
I would think MOE/Schools could do more. As someone mentioned, the Edusave may be insufficient. Most schools offer “Enrichment” programs – not so much on “tuition” classes which is essentially to help the students grasp the concepts better (more time / at slower pace) or to make their learning experience more pleasant. However, I have the strange feeling that nowadays the students may need to be “enriched” in order to cope with the normal school assignments. The line between “Enrichment” and “Tuition” is blurred / confused ie. Top Schools papers are in great demand J.
Getting some older students to assist the younger / weaker students is certainly a good idea. However, the effectiveness may be “limited” as a more structured/consistent approach provides a platform for us to leverage – basically to reach out more for those in need.
In addition, I got an idea (not sure if it makes any sense) whereby the MOE/Schools might want to experiment it:-
a) We are quite used to the word “integrated” like “Integrated Resource”…etc – Can we consider integrated “After-care” service platform in our Schools?
b) This “After-care” service platform comprises “tuition” as one of its components but run by selected external vendors. They rent the a small office space from School and use the classrooms/facilities of the School to deliver lessons.
c) Just like the School canteen operators, they provide “affordable” and “nutritious” food to our children because the Rental is low (running cost).
d) Volunteers like older students, retired teachers, educated homemakers, part-timers… can leverage this “After-care” service platform to help the needy students. -
limlim:
Meaning, the parents who shared about irresponsible teachers are lying?ksi:
There has been no concrete evidence on the root of the issue yet as we mostly agreed on that. So I hope in the absence of hard evidence, we should discuss from that perspective.
Not at all, it just means that it has to be validated with more questioning how some of these conclusions are arrived at.
Can anyone stand out and say, there is not a single bad apples in the teaching profession?
Nothing is so absolute in the real world.
Can I ask you one thing..
Yes certainly.
If, there is 1 % of bad apples in the plantation. We witness it, it is true, the apples are rotten/with holes. The root cause? unknown.
However, it could be the insects, it could be the birds. it could be the soil.
So, someone suggest that perhaps putting up nets to guard against the birds or insects could help.
We know, birds peck at apples.. we know, insects attack apples. But, we do NOT know if our bad apples is caused by birds or insects. So we put up a safety net as \"insurance\". What is wrong with this \"insurance\"?
Sometimes this so-called insurance may not be a long-term solution and perhaps open up \"another can of worms\" which we may have a harder time dealing with it than the original ones?
So, maybe, the soil is the root of the problem. But, by putting up nets, we can guard against birds and insect which may not be the cause of the problem NOW. But it could develop into one later.
What you are saying is a stop-gap measure. Stop-gap measure is usually deployed in an emergency situation when we get desperate and will take a bite on the risk. However, in this case, we are not in A&E yet as in no one is dying from this but like I say earlier 10-15 years we may think differently, so there is still time to come up with something reasonably sound approach instead of a stop-gap measure.
If, there is a perceived flaw in the policies that could lead to potential harm (no data, not proven, but the potential is there). Isn't it prudence to plug the flaw?
Yes you are right about being prudent to plug the flaw. However, imagine this is a body system, there is a tumour growing at the spinal area and hence the flaw in the body. While it is prudent to cut off the tumour to save the body, but the spine may be badly damaged to the extent that living non-functionally becomes a question. So such decisions are hard ones, need time to deliberate on how to minimise the damage.
I'm not ranting about tuition now, I am just interested to hear from you, what is your opinion of the above example.
Hope you can mull over my answers for a while. -
oxyleo:
Ksi, lilac 66 - Thank You! For your exemplary nature.
:celebrate: All for a good discussion here as eager-to-learn parents. -
cherryc:
:celebrate: to you! We have to practise what we preach to our children.Ksi :So each of us equipped with an ant's view, if we are willing to hear each other out and discuss openly and amicably with the information gathered, I am sure it is easier to fix the jigsaw better. We can of course challenge and filter wrong information collected but it can be done in a cordial way. I value everyone's experience shared otherwise why read a forum, news would be good. If we want to read experiences, we need to have more empathy.
A balanced discussion is only possible if we keep an open mind.
If at the end, we conclude that there is indeed no problem, at least we close off this issue with a cheerful disposition, convinced that we have left no stone unturned together, being mainly concerned parents or educators. Allow me to quote Lilac66, \"Please understand it is out of good intentions\".
:please: Keep an open mind, have empathy , discuss openly and amicably, have a cheerful disposition, leave no stone unturned , out of good intentions , etc. these are the values we are imparting to our kids . Appreciate this message from Ksi! -
limlim:
Do you buy every insurance product available to you on the planet?
Meaning, the parents who shared about irresponsible teachers are lying?ksi:
There has been no concrete evidence on the root of the issue yet as we mostly agreed on that. So I hope in the absence of hard evidence, we should discuss from that perspective.
Can anyone stand out and say, there is not a single bad apples in the teaching profession?
Can I ask you one thing..
If, there is 1 % of bad apples in the plantation. We witness it, it is true, the apples are rotten/with holes. The root cause? unknown.
However, it could be the insects, it could be the birds. it could be the soil.
So, someone suggest that perhaps putting up nets to guard against the birds or insects could help.
We know, birds peck at apples.. we know, insects attack apples. But, we do NOT know if our bad apples is caused by birds or insects. So we put up a safety net as \"insurance\". What is wrong with this \"insurance\"?
So, maybe, the soil is the root of the problem. But, by putting up nets, we can guard against birds and insect which may not be the cause of the problem NOW. But it could develop into one later.
If, there is a perceived flaw in the policies that could lead to potential harm (no data, not proven, but the potential is there). Isn't it prudence to plug the flaw?
I'm not ranting about tuition now, I am just interested to hear from you, what is your opinion of the above example.
What a if surgeon tells you, lets open up your chest and see,, there is maybe a 5% chance that you are having a heart attack and I need to fix a vessel?
No consideration about cost.
No consideration about effectiveness.
No consideration about potential impact on people.
No consideration about sustainability.
No organisation can have an open-ended policy about chasing down every single possible issue, you prioritize and take the actions that are meaningful. The daily cost-benefit decisions we take in our lives applies to ministries and countries too, only on a larger scale. -
ksi:
1. I agree this KPI is not workable. There is no span of control by the teacher over what additional help children are getting outside the school.
Agreed that KPI is not workable. But to kick start a decline this mad rush to join tution/enrichment, it could be a small weightage in KPI. Just to incentivise the teacher to stress to parents , tution is not needed. Except in cases where the teacher feels it is.
2. Strictly speaking, this allowance of a limited hours of moonlighting has a conflict of interest.
Yes, moonlighting should not be allowed.
Even if the teacher is not teaching any student from her school, there is a question of the resources she may use/generate as a tutor could be a product of the school. Even if it is done with her own material and in her own time.
I believe, for other professions it is so, the employee owns the rights over inventions/creations done within the function scope of the employer, even if it doesnt state so explicity in the contract. Because the experience she gets while teaching, information from other school material, trainings etc is all obtained within her job function.
School teacher command more fee (relatively) just because of they are in the profession (I base this on ads which showcase \"current school teacher\", \"NIE trained\")
What about teachers who need to work more ? Also it would be a waste to not utilize the time and effort of teachers who are willing and want to do more teaching. What could be done is redirect the teachers who want to earn more do extra work for the resource strapped schools and pay reasonable rates for it.
3. I do not think the control on advertisements would work either. Just like after a few near-death accounts of people are reported after consuming diet pills, I see diet pills are still selling well.
Agree. Most parents are not moved by ads while it does intrigue us, we do not decide mainly based on that . What is a more importnant is \"what everyone says\", What place the other kids who are doing well in the class attend, and a little of logistics , and affordability.
To be candid, both gambling and heavy tuition nation have consequence to the society, only high impact or low impact and when. One is more immediate, the other needs another 10-15 years to see the outcome. We have to wait, but if we want to extrapolate, we can see it in Japan, China, HK and perhaps even Korea which are all ahead of the curve than us. Hence, you are right to say gambling has an obvious consequence.
This i agree. Probably a lot of us will have kids out of the system before it turns that bad, but it is easier to control a small fire not after it becomes a forest fire. It is not that bad yet for emergency and stop-gap measures, but if cooling off steps are introduced now, we dont have to get into that stage. And we can work out long term solutions , redefining objectives of education for Singapore.
One thing I want to congratulate Singapore with this tuition nation phenomenon in a positive way is, I can say, \"We have arrived!!\" Only world-class CITIES in Asia has this similar education syndrome, look around. We have indeed grown up from our kampong days!
Yes , we have arrived.
But the point is is this where we took the ticket to?
Misled by the ad :evil: -
limlim,
what you lack perspective on is that every single one of those things you suggest, comes with some impact on resources or people, or fairness even. You only see the upside, so you say, "What’s the harm in trying?" There are issues attached to these measures. Teachers are people too, if they want to make a bit of a better living, where’s the harm in that, if they keep up their school performance? A blanket ban (just in case), is hurtful to a lot of people, and who knows, may drive them out of the service. Please consider the consequences of actions before merrily going around prescribing them.
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