Asia spending billions on tutors: study
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limlim:
Do you buy every insurance product available to you on the planet?
Meaning, the parents who shared about irresponsible teachers are lying?ksi:
There has been no concrete evidence on the root of the issue yet as we mostly agreed on that. So I hope in the absence of hard evidence, we should discuss from that perspective.
Can anyone stand out and say, there is not a single bad apples in the teaching profession?
Can I ask you one thing..
If, there is 1 % of bad apples in the plantation. We witness it, it is true, the apples are rotten/with holes. The root cause? unknown.
However, it could be the insects, it could be the birds. it could be the soil.
So, someone suggest that perhaps putting up nets to guard against the birds or insects could help.
We know, birds peck at apples.. we know, insects attack apples. But, we do NOT know if our bad apples is caused by birds or insects. So we put up a safety net as \"insurance\". What is wrong with this \"insurance\"?
So, maybe, the soil is the root of the problem. But, by putting up nets, we can guard against birds and insect which may not be the cause of the problem NOW. But it could develop into one later.
If, there is a perceived flaw in the policies that could lead to potential harm (no data, not proven, but the potential is there). Isn't it prudence to plug the flaw?
I'm not ranting about tuition now, I am just interested to hear from you, what is your opinion of the above example.
What a if surgeon tells you, lets open up your chest and see,, there is maybe a 5% chance that you are having a heart attack and I need to fix a vessel?
No consideration about cost.
No consideration about effectiveness.
No consideration about potential impact on people.
No consideration about sustainability.
No organisation can have an open-ended policy about chasing down every single possible issue, you prioritize and take the actions that are meaningful. The daily cost-benefit decisions we take in our lives applies to ministries and countries too, only on a larger scale. -
ksi:
1. I agree this KPI is not workable. There is no span of control by the teacher over what additional help children are getting outside the school.
Agreed that KPI is not workable. But to kick start a decline this mad rush to join tution/enrichment, it could be a small weightage in KPI. Just to incentivise the teacher to stress to parents , tution is not needed. Except in cases where the teacher feels it is.
2. Strictly speaking, this allowance of a limited hours of moonlighting has a conflict of interest.
Yes, moonlighting should not be allowed.
Even if the teacher is not teaching any student from her school, there is a question of the resources she may use/generate as a tutor could be a product of the school. Even if it is done with her own material and in her own time.
I believe, for other professions it is so, the employee owns the rights over inventions/creations done within the function scope of the employer, even if it doesnt state so explicity in the contract. Because the experience she gets while teaching, information from other school material, trainings etc is all obtained within her job function.
School teacher command more fee (relatively) just because of they are in the profession (I base this on ads which showcase \"current school teacher\", \"NIE trained\")
What about teachers who need to work more ? Also it would be a waste to not utilize the time and effort of teachers who are willing and want to do more teaching. What could be done is redirect the teachers who want to earn more do extra work for the resource strapped schools and pay reasonable rates for it.
3. I do not think the control on advertisements would work either. Just like after a few near-death accounts of people are reported after consuming diet pills, I see diet pills are still selling well.
Agree. Most parents are not moved by ads while it does intrigue us, we do not decide mainly based on that . What is a more importnant is \"what everyone says\", What place the other kids who are doing well in the class attend, and a little of logistics , and affordability.
To be candid, both gambling and heavy tuition nation have consequence to the society, only high impact or low impact and when. One is more immediate, the other needs another 10-15 years to see the outcome. We have to wait, but if we want to extrapolate, we can see it in Japan, China, HK and perhaps even Korea which are all ahead of the curve than us. Hence, you are right to say gambling has an obvious consequence.
This i agree. Probably a lot of us will have kids out of the system before it turns that bad, but it is easier to control a small fire not after it becomes a forest fire. It is not that bad yet for emergency and stop-gap measures, but if cooling off steps are introduced now, we dont have to get into that stage. And we can work out long term solutions , redefining objectives of education for Singapore.
One thing I want to congratulate Singapore with this tuition nation phenomenon in a positive way is, I can say, \"We have arrived!!\"
Only world-class CITIES in Asia has this similar education syndrome, look around. We have indeed grown up from our kampong days! 
Yes , we have arrived.
But the point is is this where we took the ticket to?
Misled by the ad :evil: -
limlim,
what you lack perspective on is that every single one of those things you suggest, comes with some impact on resources or people, or fairness even. You only see the upside, so you say, "What’s the harm in trying?" There are issues attached to these measures. Teachers are people too, if they want to make a bit of a better living, where’s the harm in that, if they keep up their school performance? A blanket ban (just in case), is hurtful to a lot of people, and who knows, may drive them out of the service. Please consider the consequences of actions before merrily going around prescribing them. -
ksi:
You have no idea how timely your post was. All of us have a halo and 2 horns. And believe me, the light on my halo was dimming and those 2 horns were on the way out! :imanangel: :oops:oxyleo:
Ksi, lilac 66 - Thank You! For your exemplary nature.
:celebrate: All for a good discussion here as eager-to-learn parents.
Thanks to your post and Lilac's quote, the horns are right back where I'd like them to be. :grphug: -
All the myth circulating, posing as truth.[/quote]
what myth?[/quote]
Bcoz they never encountered it, so they dismiss it as myth, and other parent's experience are like lies to them maybe..[/quote]
:thankyou: limlim :salute:
Some parents are so blessed that they fail to see the pain of others ..... -
BlurDad:
I think this is already happening in many schools. Fees can be paid for by Edusave so effectively it is free for students.Musings:
[quote=\"BlurDad\"]
4. What are the possible / practical solutions? In my opinion:
a) MOE/Schools can leverage on selected external vendors (tuition centers) to complement their supplementary classes for weaker students by subsidizing heavily (according to kids' household income) the fees - this will help the teachers (who may be overly-stretched by schools' KPIs, multiple roles demanding of them) and assist those low income kids who genuinely need assistance.
I would think MOE/Schools could do more. As someone mentioned, the Edusave may be insufficient. Most schools offer “Enrichment” programs – not so much on “tuition” classes which is essentially to help the students grasp the concepts better (more time / at slower pace) or to make their learning experience more pleasant. However, I have the strange feeling that nowadays the students may need to be “enriched” in order to cope with the normal school assignments. The line between “Enrichment” and “Tuition” is blurred / confused ie. Top Schools papers are in great demand J.
Getting some older students to assist the younger / weaker students is certainly a good idea. However, the effectiveness may be “limited” as a more structured/consistent approach provides a platform for us to leverage – basically to reach out more for those in need.
In addition, I got an idea (not sure if it makes any sense) whereby the MOE/Schools might want to experiment it:-
a) We are quite used to the word “integrated” like “Integrated Resource”…etc – Can we consider integrated “After-care” service platform in our Schools?
b) This “After-care” service platform comprises “tuition” as one of its components but run by selected external vendors. They rent the a small office space from School and use the classrooms/facilities of the School to deliver lessons.
c) Just like the School canteen operators, they provide “affordable” and “nutritious” food to our children because the Rental is low (running cost).
d) Volunteers like older students, retired teachers, educated homemakers, part-timers… can leverage this “After-care” service platform to help the needy students.[/quote]BlurDad, I like your ideas. I do think based on some parents' sharing, a lot of it is already happening. Many schools have Learning Support Programme to help the weaker students right from P1 - these are run by parent volunteers and other volunteers.
MOE gives schools a grant and the schools use it to subsidise after school programmes. The schools are empowered to decide on the after school programmes as they deem appropriate and many have done so. For the high ability students, they are 'enriched' - eg. Maths Olympiad training by external vendors. For the weaker students, there are remedial lessons run by the school. For the average student, they can sign up for the academic courses run by external vendors.
Edusave is sufficient for 1 or 2 courses but of course not if the parent wants to sign up for almost all courses for the child. From my DS school, there are at least 6 courses (both academic and non academic) which run concurrently and it is to give parents a variety to choose and you are not expected to sign up for all. Logistically, probably impossible anyway to attend all. So I feel Edusave is generally sufficient. -
Suz855:
This is exactly what I mean by empathy or the lack of. Based on the backgrounds of our ruling team, many of them are pretty blessed, at least blessed with academic talent to arrive at where they are today. However, what differentiates them would be their ability to empathise.
:thankyou: limlim :salute:
Some parents are so blessed that they fail to see the pain of others .....
If I am not wrong, our poor SINGA who seems to be singing its own tune at every campaign is singing...\"Empathy\" this time.
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Likewise, we also have to empathise with the teachers. 20 years ago, they don’t have rigorous KPIs, they don’t have to do research papers, they don’t have to face the expectations and demands of so many highly educated parents, they don’t have to cope with the vastly increased curriculum, they don’t have to be kept reminded to prepare children for the unknown future with untested skills. Teachers are still the same human beings after all but have to do more now with lesser time (but more pay and temptations perhaps……). So kudos to those who persevere and thrive. (For those who don’t, normally I will have a word with the HOD…….)
I was unfortunate to be at both the recent City Hall (no electricity) and Novena train station during the major breakdown. Prior to that, there were frequent breakdowns but nobody would seriously think we would have any major problem with our world class system. But when it happened, it is suddenly plain for us to see why the basic procedures are not boosted when there is gradual system overload. But non-MRT riders may not empathise. But if all mrt riders decided to switch to bus/taxi/car, subsequently all will be affected. We may not know how to solve the present situation but feedbacks/concerns will help to highlight the areas where it can be improved before the system breakdown. And this is even more important than trains where we still have other alternatives. -
ksi:
If the example cited by you is a true happening, yes, I agree that there is a potential conflict of interest. On the other hand, even if this teacher doesn't teach her students in an external tuition centre, as long as she is the exam paper setter, what is stopping her from giving extra hints to her own class students so that a majority of them will perform well vis-a-vis another class taught by another teacher (there must be KPI for teachers' performance at the end of the day like how many good passes in a class, no?)? So the way to solve this conflict of interest issue should not be that a teacher cannot moonlight as a tuition teacher. Rather, she should not be teaching her own students outside of school and getting paid for it. Agree?
2. Strictly speaking, this allowance of a limited hours of moonlighting has a conflict of interest. I cite an example here. A teacher teaches at a well known tuition centre. Some children from the school attend this centre. This same teacher teaches the same children in school as well. The teacher may also be the exam paper setter. Say, majority of the tuition kids perform well. Then it becomes a point of discussion whether the teacher gave extra hints to the tuition kids but in reality it might just be because they spent more time on that subject due to the tuition. It becomes an unnecessary debate for the teacher and doubts are cast. In the commercial world, most companies will allow moonlighting if livelihood is an issue but not doing the same work. For example, if one works in banking, one can be a lecturer for banking in the night or even give tuition in Math, then there is no conflict of interest.
As you have said, livelihood is the reason why people moonlight. School teachers' special skill set is in teaching academic subjects and they get a premium for it. We can't impose upon the school teachers that they become waitresses or piano teachers or insurance agents just because of potential conflict of interest in the example that you have cited.
It's like I see a lot of Yamaha piano teachers teaching students outside of Yamaha, some are existing Yamaha students attending group lessons in Yamaha, some are not. It would be quite crazy to suggest that these teachers ought to be teaching something else other than piano if they wish to moonlight. These teachers will just leave Yamaha and be private teachers teaching 100% from home.
As I said earlier, I do not see tuition centres as the competitor of MOE. They are complementary and therefore, conflict of interest issue can be managed for cases such as the one you have cited.ksi:
That is why this phenomenon is not just the doing of MOE. I think we can all agree on that.One thing I want to congratulate Singapore with this tuition nation phenomenon in a positive way is, I can say, \"We have arrived!!\"
Only world-class CITIES in Asia has this similar education syndrome, look around. We have indeed grown up from our kampong days!
I do not think that some forummers here lack empathy per se. It is perhaps the constant \"attacking\" by some on MOE and teachers over multiple threads in this forum over the last few months that caused some wanting to speak up and present an alternative view to balance things up a bit. Perhaps it has come across as being snobbish at times.
No offence to anyone. :xedfingers: -
ksi:
Agree. It takes a good minister/MP to really walk the ground and listen to the common folk. I am almost certain non of them live in a HDB flat and none of them take public transport, for good reasons for the most part, like having a busy schedule, but a good minister/MP will listen hard, gather feedback with his/her grassroots members and not ignore comments or dismiss them as hearsay just because they did not experience the situation themselves.
This is exactly what I mean by empathy or the lack of. Based on the backgrounds of our ruling team, many of them are pretty blessed, at least blessed with academic talent to arrive at where they are today. However, what differentiates them would be their ability to empathise.Suz855:
:thankyou: limlim :salute:
Some parents are so blessed that they fail to see the pain of others .....
If I am not wrong, our poor SINGA who seems to be singing its own tune at every campaign is singing...\"Empathy\" this time.
A good minister/MP will also make the effort to really understand experiences across varying profiles of people.
I shudder to think what conclusion a minister/MP would arrive at if he were to believe to be true only what he and the other ministers and MPs themselves are experiencing. HDB :scratchhead: MRT :scratchhead: got problem meh? No one around me is complaining (we dont live in them or ride in them :oops: ). There. I certainly don't see the problem.
For those whose kids are already out of the education system and working - Tuition? :scratchhead: well, my kids never complained then. My neighbors' kids didn't complain either. What's the problem?
Thankfully we have some good ones. I have a good MP, who walks around, listens, shares, connects, empathizes. Bless him.
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