PSLE 2009 RESULTS!!
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xxjustakidxx:
Hi,I'm the most stressful one around here.
My school has a consistent history of 27+ top scorers.
I've been wanting to beat my school record of 276, since P3.
My school's a neighbourhood school, NTPS.
During results release, I got 257.
I cried, and people beside me laughed, hysterically, because I wasn't qualified to go to schools like RI and Dunman anymore, which I was confident of.
I was the top in school, but a disgraceful top.
I feel overshadowed by all my seniors and feel that I've disgraced my school.
I canceled two schools off my list, and unwillingly added another two non IP schools.
People even think I am proud, and I am crying tears of joy.
Worst case?
Don't be too harsh on yourself. In life, there are bounds to be disappointment and the key thing is to be able to stand up again. So don't let this affect this, you've a long journey ahead. For all you know, with your determination you can do your secondary school proud during \"O\" levels. This is life experience so it's a good learning for you too. Take it positively. -
atutor2001:
I was told that there are 'decimal points' to the t-score that we do not get to see on the result slip. So if there are 2 person with 262, and 1 place left, they look at the decimal point to differentiate. If still the same, they look at other differentiating factor, including HMT, even though the school may not be a SAP school.
I would agree with the MOE officer except for students with T-score range of 240 to 265.VitoRelax:
I have just spoken to the MOE officer. She assured me that in their history, they have never come across a case where 2 students having identical score choosing the same school.
To bring the argument further, what if the 2 students with same identical score both put River Valley High as 2nd Choice & there is only one place left ? Who gets the place ?
For aggregates above 265, the child's chance of getting into the 1st choice is quite safe.
For aggregates lower than 240, I think a key consideration is location of school i.e. convenience, near to home. So chances of a few students with same T-score having same choice of school at the COP is also very slim because the school choices will be spread out - by location.
However, for the 240 to 265 range, most parents would want the child to go the best school possible, regardless of the distance/location. So the chance of a few students with same school choice and same T-score is higher because the school choices will converge to a small group of schools. However, the number would not be big (definitely less than 10) and I believe the programme will allocate placement to all of them to the same school (i.e. RV in your case) so that the integrity of the definition of COP is still intact. The size of a school intake is actually not \"rigid\". There should be a buffer of at least + or - 10 pupils. -
atutor2001:
[/quote]Following atutor2001, vitorelax & fullcream's discussion, this is my take on the matter:
Some mathematical questions to consider :atutor2001:
[quote=\"parentof3\"]
I think it's not like that. If ah beng is 230.11111 and ah seng is 230.2333, ah seng will get to choose first. Nobody will have the exact score ie 230.000. So ah seng 1st choice SSS if COP is 230, ah seng will be given SSS. When ah beng turn, he'll get 3rd choice since ah seng got the last seat for SSS.
Question 1 (True or False)
The T-score is computed by computer, which can generate to many decimal places. As a result, it is impossible for 2 students to have exactly the same T-score.
Answer : FALSE
Question 2 (True or False)
Even if the answer for question 1 is \"False\", the chance of it happening is very very slim because the number of decimal places used for the comparison is so large.
Answer : FALSE
Question 3
Support your answers to Q1 & Q2 with mathematical concepts or theories.
Answer to support Q1:
a. The calculation of the T-score is dependent on the \"national average (NA)\", \"standard deviation (SD) and the student's actual score.
b. The NA and SD are \"Constant\" (fixed number) derived from overall results and will not change.
c. Therefore, a student's T-score depends only on his \"actual score\" for each subject
d. Two students with exactly the same \"actual score\" for all 4 subjects will have exactly the same T-score, regardless of the number of decimal places generated. For example, if both student A & B get 70 for math, 65 for science, 80 for English and 76 for Chinese, their T-score will be exactly the same.
Answer to support Q2:
a. There are over 48,000 students taking the PSLE
b. The \"degree of accuracy\" of the marking scheme for the papers is 0.5 marks. That is, the \"finest\" incremental change in mark is 0.5 (1/2 mark)
c. The intelligence of the huge group of mid-range students are quite similar.
d. With such a huge population size of over 48,000, it is quite probable for more than 2 students to get exactly the same combination of marks for the 4 subjects and their T-score will be the same.
Question 4
All Answers from helplines are true.
Answer 4:
\"Cannot Tell\" Depends on your luck on who receives your call.
1. Atutor2001's analysis (above) makes good sense. For a population size of > 48,500 PSLE students, there are very likely clusters of similar T scores in certain bands of T scores given that the NA and SD are constants across the whole cohort and the only variance is the raw scores.
2. Selection is based on merit over choice but subjected to vacancies availability.
Since MOE tries to have a fair and transparent system of selection, how then does MOE deals with such cases where the T scores are similar but there are limited vancancies in the school of choice?
The system is not that all transparent in that MOE does not publicly reveal:
i). The decimal points in the T scores (someone has mentioned six but MOE says it is confidential).
ii) The way papers are marked. Is it 1/4 or 1/2 point incremental change? This will make a difference to the decimal points. In case of a tie, do the examiners fine comb through the individual papers to determine the small difference or would this really be worth the trouble?
iii) Some schools do not reveal the exact total S1 intake to afford some flexibility.
Therein lies the answer. MOE is silent on these details so that in cases of ties, it can exercise its discretion but this discretion will be exercised fairly to all. -
Following atutor2001, vitorelax & fullcream’s discussion, this is my take on the matter:
1. Atutor2001’s analysis (above) makes good sense. For a population size of > 48,500 PSLE students, there are very likely clusters of similar T scores in certain bands of T scores given that the NA and SD are constants across the whole cohort and the only variance is the raw scores.
2. Selection is based on merit over choice but subjected to vacancies availability.
Since MOE tries to have a fair and transparent system of selection, how then does MOE deals with such cases where the T scores are similar but there are limited vancancies in the school of choice?
The system is not that all transparent in that MOE does not publicly reveal:
i). The decimal points in the T scores (someone has mentioned six but MOE says it is confidential).
ii) The way papers are marked. Is it 1/4 or 1/2 point incremental change? This will make a difference to the decimal points. In case of a tie, do the examiners fine comb through the individual papers to determine the small difference or would this really be worth the trouble?
iii) Some schools do not reveal the exact total S1 intake to afford some flexibility.
Therein lies the answer. MOE is silent on these details so that in cases of ties, it can exercise its discretion but this discretion will be exercised fairly to all.[/quote]
I went to one of the school today … COP is 2-3 point above my DD score & teacher told us ,'If you put our school as ‘First choice’, chances are that it will be confirmed…
Looks like there will be may students with same T-score( As explanined above same marks for all subjects) in range of 240-265… Better not take chances… Everyone says ‘It is a Gamble’… -
Way2GO:
Following atutor2001, vitorelax & fullcream's discussion, this is my take on the matter:atutor2001:
[quote=\"atutor2001\"]
Some mathematical questions to consider :
Question 1 (True or False)
The T-score is computed by computer, which can generate to many decimal places. As a result, it is impossible for 2 students to have exactly the same T-score.
Answer : FALSE
Question 2 (True or False)
Even if the answer for question 1 is \"False\", the chance of it happening is very very slim because the number of decimal places used for the comparison is so large.
Answer : FALSE
Question 3
Support your answers to Q1 & Q2 with mathematical concepts or theories.
Answer to support Q1:
a. The calculation of the T-score is dependent on the \"national average (NA)\", \"standard deviation (SD) and the student's actual score.
b. The NA and SD are \"Constant\" (fixed number) derived from overall results and will not change.
c. Therefore, a student's T-score depends only on his \"actual score\" for each subject
d. Two students with exactly the same \"actual score\" for all 4 subjects will have exactly the same T-score, regardless of the number of decimal places generated. For example, if both student A & B get 70 for math, 65 for science, 80 for English and 76 for Chinese, their T-score will be exactly the same.
Answer to support Q2:
a. There are over 48,000 students taking the PSLE
b. The \"degree of accuracy\" of the marking scheme for the papers is 0.5 marks. That is, the \"finest\" incremental change in mark is 0.5 (1/2 mark)
c. The intelligence of the huge group of mid-range students are quite similar.
d. With such a huge population size of over 48,000, it is quite probable for more than 2 students to get exactly the same combination of marks for the 4 subjects and their T-score will be the same.
Question 4
All Answers from helplines are true.
Answer 4:
\"Cannot Tell\" Depends on your luck on who receives your call.
1. Atutor2001's analysis (above) makes good sense. For a population size of > 48,500 PSLE students, there are very likely clusters of similar T scores in certain bands of T scores given that the NA and SD are constants across the whole cohort and the only variance is the raw scores.
2. Selection is based on merit over choice but subjected to vacancies availability.
Since MOE tries to have a fair and transparent system of selection, how then does MOE deals with such cases where the T scores are similar but there are limited vancancies in the school of choice?
The system is not that all transparent in that MOE does not publicly reveal:
i). The decimal points in the T scores (someone has mentioned six but MOE says it is confidential).
ii) The way papers are marked. Is it 1/4 or 1/2 point incremental change? This will make a difference to the decimal points. In case of a tie, do the examiners fine comb through the individual papers to determine the small difference or would this really be worth the trouble?
iii) Some schools do not reveal the exact total S1 intake to afford some flexibility.
Therein lies the answer. MOE is silent on these details so that in cases of ties, it can exercise its discretion but this discretion will be exercised fairly to all.[/quote]If the child with the same score as the COP is rejected, he can appeal. There are a high chances he will get in thru appeal. I have seen many cases last year. Some child whose scores are below COP also able to get him the schools thru appeal. You will never get an answer from MOE and not worth while going into details. -
[quote]I went to one of the school today ... COP is 2-3 point above my DD score & teacher told us ,'If you put our school as 'First choice', chances are that it will be confirmed..
[/quote]So far, all my 3 choices, the sch never say cfm. It depends on demand & supply. No one from the sch really knows. On the other hand, it also depends on perception of the sch. I know schs from Jurong West, one can put COP above actual score and still get in. -
For students already have DSA offers, when do they have to confirm?
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atutor2001:
I think when the MOE officer said that \"in their history, it has never happened\", it is in the context of of having ALL these occured at the same time:
However, for the 240 to 265 range ... the chance of a few students with same school choice and same T-score is higher because the school choices will converge to a small group of schools. However, the number would not be big (definitely less than 10) and I believe the programme will allocate placement to all of them to the same school (i.e. RV in your case) so that the integrity of the definition of COP is still intact. The size of a school intake is actually not \"rigid\". There should be a buffer of at least + or - 10 pupils.
a) Identical marks to the exact 1/2 or 1/4 marks for all the 4 subjects
b) they choose the same school
c) there are not enough vacancy for one person but just enough for one person.
If (a) and (b) are true but (c) in not true, then the scenario is irrelevant. The Scenario is only valid when ALL (a), (b) & (c) are true.
Bringing the argument further, what is the algorithm used by MOE when even their choice are the same, say for example, if both put HCI as 2nd choice ?
At closing dates, when all student's choices are keyed in, the software should straight away generate allocation for all students. The software is not human, so I don't think they will program their software to stop for a while & then ask \"do you want to increase vacancy for school A ?\", then someone (MOE officer or school principal) key in the answer & the computer continue to run ..... It will take ages if that is the way the software is being programmed.
The software should straight away, at a press of a button, allocate places to all students. -
If the total number of students is divided by the range, then maybe the COP may be affected this year.
Assuming there are 48,000 students in PSLE 2009, the simple average number of students scoring each mark is 48,000/(290-45) = 196 students per mark.
But for PSLE 2008, the simple average is 48,000(287-87)= 240 students per mark.
That means that for a student who scored 240 for PSLE 2008 and PSLE 2009, the respective position percentage is different.
PSLE 2009 = (290-240)/245 * 100% = top 20.4%
PSLE 2008 = (287-240)/200 * 100% = top 23.5%
For a student who scores 230, the respective position percentage is;
PSLE 2009 = (290-230)/245 * 100% = top 24.4%
PSLE 2008 = (287-230)/200 * 100% = top 28.5%
Based on simple average, I can say that if a school’s COP is 230 for PSLE 2008, then the school gets the top 28.5% of the cohort, but if the COP remains at 230 for PSLE 2009, then it gets an improvement in the cohort to top 24.4%. To capture the same top 28.5% of cohort, the COP will have to be lowered to 220. (see* computation)
*PSLE 2009 = (290-220)/245 * 100% = top 28.5%
Of course the assumption used is simple average which is not exactly what the distribution is (it should be a bell curve), but the idea is there in order to present it simply. so I think parents may apply for a school which COP is slightly higher than their child’s actual PSLE score and hope for the best outcome. -
James Ang:
Of course, your calculation is based on assumption of simple averages.If the total number of students is divided by the range, then maybe the COP may be affected this year.
Assuming there are 48,000 students in PSLE 2009, the simple average number of students scoring each mark is 48,000/(290-45) = 196 students per mark.
But for PSLE 2008, the simple average is 48,000(287-87)= 240 students per mark.
That means that for a student who scored 240 for PSLE 2008 and PSLE 2009, the respective position percentage is different.
PSLE 2009 = (290-240)/245 * 100% = top 20.4%
PSLE 2008 = (287-240)/200 * 100% = top 23.5%
For a student who scores 230, the respective position percentage is;
PSLE 2009 = (290-230)/245 * 100% = top 24.4%
PSLE 2008 = (287-230)/200 * 100% = top 28.5%
Based on simple average, I can say that if a school's COP is 230 for PSLE 2008, then the school gets the top 28.5% of the cohort, but if the COP remains at 230 for PSLE 2009, then it gets an improvement in the cohort to top 24.4%. To capture the same top 28.5% of cohort, the COP will have to be lowered to 220. (see* computation)
*PSLE 2009 = (290-220)/245 * 100% = top 28.5%
Of course the assumption used is simple average which is not exactly what the distribution is (it should be a bell curve), but the idea is there in order to present it simply. so I think parents may apply for a school which COP is slightly higher than their child's actual PSLE score and hope for the best outcome.
We can have a clearer picture if MOE release the mean & standard deviation of all subjects for every year.
Any idea why MOE does not want to release this info ?
Any idea why should simple info like mean & standard deviation be confidential ?
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