Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?

[znzyzyzx]

Thats why i dont think anybody is saying that we dont need foreigner. We are just requesting for a more manageable numbers.

3Boys:

Why does one assume that the lack of suitable job opportunities is down to the presence of foreign workers? One can make the case that if not for the presence of foreign workers (FTs, FWs or what have you), we would have even FEWER industries, and FEWER companies and FEWER HQs, and therefore, even less jobs for Singaporeans.

If having greater numbers of qualified workers take away jobs, then countries like the Philippines, India, China should have tons of high value jobs available for their resident citizens, since they are exporting tons of their most highly qualified people to OTHER countries, right?

So what's the truth? Foreigners create jobs or foreigners take away jobs? It's both.

People make it out to be a zero-sum game, when it is far from being the case.

[concern2]

znzyzyzx:

MMM:

[quote=\"concern2\"]

:hi5: But hor, next time who would want to marry my boy if he is a plumber? :faint: See, I don't mind if he's a plumber and he gets to spend more time with family. I also don't mind them wanting to get married earlier and have children at a younger age, and I can be a grandparent at an age which I can be mobile enough to give a helping hand if needed...only thing is would kiasuparents want their DD to marry a plumber?

Concern2,

Maybe you got foresight... For all you know, maybe a plumber is paid more than a doctor next time. As without the plumber, maybe it will be :imconstipated:

They are already getting that lah. Recently I get a plumber to repair a spoilt tap, Cost $120 for 20mins job.[/quote] :evil: You see? But hor, someone here spoiling market leh - market rate is only 80 bucks per trip hor! The rest is cost of spare parts - and perhaps your tap!

[Sun_2010]

:goodpost:

MR06:

I feel not enough is being done to help the \"unemployable\" to get a job and we had all this while taken the easy way out by bringing in foreigners.

Let me define the \"unemployable\"
1. Employers' prejudice
2. Employees' \"hindrances\"
a) attitude
b) personal hygiene
c) low-self esteem
d) image
e) interpersonal skills
(there should be more, but off-hand that's what I can think of)

Without some hand-holding and guidance, some people would not know their own \"hindrances\" or how to overcome these \"hindrances\". Maybe the government could put in some resources to reach out to these people. Perhaps have some schemes to encourage them to work cum train for a start in stats board with mentors. Tap this pool of people, equip them and help them to stand on their feet.

I used to see this man who diligently goes to the community centre to pick up the Chinese papers and scour its classified job ads. I've seen him doing that for one whole year! I wondered if he went beyond jotting down the numbers ect. Did he make any calls? Did he went for any interviews? Did he get any offers? Did he reject any offers? I have no answer.

[Dreamaurora]

Dora1:

Dreamaurora:

I think this also got to do with how children nowadays are brought up. If as a parent we keep emphasizing our kids to study hard and get a cushy office job, obviously our children will think twice before accepting lower pay or mundane jobs. Because doing so will cause them to 'lose face'.

I am really fascinated by how people in this island view these jobs. When I watch sitcoms from USA, I notice that even the blue collar workers are portrayed very favourably e.g. that plumber hunk from Desperate Housewives. I once asked my angmor friend and really he said that back in his country the social stigma associated with the blue collar jobs is far less than Singapore. I hope one day we can reach a point where all jobs are treated with respect and we all can be proud of whatever jobs our kids partake.

The \"face\" is directly related to the pay. If your son works as a cook in the coffeeshop vs chef in a 5 * hotel, what is the difference in the face? They are essentially the same job, the difference is the pay! No face if you are lower income and every month have to wait for gov's this and that grant in order to survive.

Therein lies the paradox. Nobody starts immediately as a chef in a 5* hotel (unless parents are loaded); any aspiring chef have to start work as a line cook and work their way up to become sous chef before becoming an executive chef.

If we link 'face' to how much we earn, the joy is only temporary. And having a lot of 'face' because of how much we earn does not guarantee respect from others; just see how much animosity people have towards our MPs and ministers despite them earning really a lot of money. For me 'face' is about the quality and honesty in my work. I watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi and I truly respect that kind of character. Even though he could have gone fully commercial and set up sushi chains to earn really lots of money, he choose to devote his heart and soul to his sushi creations in that single sushi shop he owns for decades. Now that is a 'face' that I would die for. We don't work to please other people. If 'face' is that important, why is it many high earning professionals decided to do mid-career switch to a job that is much less prestigious and lesser pay such as teaching or social work?

[hercules]

Sun_2010:

If a degree is lets you get a job as a temp data entry operator , then why all this hulla bulla about \" good schools\" and foreign scholars taking up uni places. Afterall that struggle they are getting worthless cert.

I also dont know what is the hulla bulla all about. 'People have, I also want to have', regardless of whether having it is at what cost and whether worth or not - typical of human or just applicable to Singaporeans?

Sun_2010:

So how? have a different population for each group? .

Need to reach a compromise, a middle ground somewhere. Dont overkill.

Sun_2010:

If our grads have walked thru uni without an ilking of how to fend and grow in the job market, what they need to do to stay relevant and adapt to that , they should ask for a refund. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there . And if education has not prepared one for that, too bad. We will learn it the hard way.

I would say majority of our local kids are not prepared for that, too bad!

Havent you heard enough of uni-potentials wanna to go to a certain course, such as banking, that they are interested in, but couldn't get in. So die die must go to the uni and ended up anyhow kasa a course that they could enter. After graduated, then anyhow kasa a job. In their little minds, degree is THE THING; anything else lesser is a shame!

A level results will be out soon. Many of these kids will have to 'kasa kasa' again. I dont blame the kids but lament over some parents who cannot offer them wiser choices and have to fix their eyes die die on the uni. With not-so-wise parents (even high educated ones), what can we expect from these kids?

Yawn...

[Sun_2010]

pirate:

Dora1:

For many of them. they were not even given the opportunity to go for interviews, not to talk about counter offering the pay. From my friends of the industry, fresh grads have no chance at all, which is very different from my experience in the industry 10+ years ago as a fresh grad.

These grads are here in the stat board because we are still remotely related to the industry. They still hope to go back to the industry some day, and this is the closest to experience they can get. They told me many of their friends are now in insurance or housing agents or teachers, which is totally unrelated to the industry cos they have given up looking. These young people who are trained using taxpayers money are lost to the industry forever.

I wonder how many of them actually wrote in their application letter, \"I know I am a fresh graduate with no relevant experience. However, I am eager to learn on the job. I would be pleased to be given an opportunity to start at the factory floor on a non-graduate trainee's allowance instead of graduate pay.\" Bet you that would get them at least an interview somewhere for no other reason than sheer initiative.

And that is the problem with some of our young fresh graduates.

Exactly.
You have got to show the employer - employ me and I will be more productive than a lower paid and or more experienced person

Because typically employer wants value for money. You have to show you are worth it. That your lack of experience will be more than compensated by your efficiency and attitude.

After all this is the time one can afford to take risks. Not mid career with more responsibilities bogging them down.

[Sun_2010]

Dreamaurora:

If we link 'face' to how much we earn, the joy is only temporary. And having a lot of 'face' because of how much we earn does not guarantee respect from others; just see how much animosity people have towards our MPs and ministers despite them earning really a lot of money. For me 'face' is about the quality and honesty in my work. I watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi and I truly respect that kind of character. Even though he could have gone fully commercial and set up sushi chains to earn really lots of money, he choose to devote his heart and soul to his sushi creations in that single sushi shop he owns for decades. Now that is a 'face' that I would die for.


But then you are \"Dream\" :evil:

We don't work to please other people.
If only. If only. There would be more contentment, less stress related disorders ....

If 'face' is that important, why is it many high earning professionals decided to do mid-career switch to a job that is much less prestigious and lesser pay such as teaching or social work?
Only a few. They are fortunate to realise its better late than never. some dont have the courgage to take that step. Some dont even realise it.

[Laura02]

Actually, I do hear a lot of stories fr both new grads and over 40 Singaporeans who do find it hard to look for jobs and find themselves doing jobs that are way below their expectations. And they attribute that to FT/ FW willing to come in at lower pay and longer hours. There are 2 sides to the story.

Perhaps it’s where do we find the balance. If we really can’t have our cake and eat it, then what fraction of the cake do we eat? And as everyone’s balance, or should I say appetite, is different, perhaps taking a vote would be the most equitable.

[hercules]

Government lazy or not keen to explore how to segregrate FT/WP quota needs of different industries, preferring more on one-size-fit-all.


Perhaps another possibility to restrict or release quota is to look at the working hours needs of each industry other than mere white/blue collar jobs.

For those industries, such as most banks and most jobs in non-service companies, that operate regular fixed hours (excl OT), they will have lower quota. With lower quota, perhaps more jobs can be released to our local instead of being filled by FT.

For those industries that need to work long hours and that require shift work, such as restuarants, that can drag way into the night, can have a higher quota (since one of the key words of many Sporeans is "work life balance" and therefore reluctant to work shifts, long hours, etc).

[WeiHan]

znzyzyzx:

pirate:

[quote=\"Dora1\"]I totally agree with you. 10+ years ago, when I was a fresh graduate, I had no problems look for a job even though I have no experience. The companies were will to give us a chance and train us. Now, in the stat board that I am in, there are 10 fresh uni grads who have technical degrees fr NUS and NTU, doing temp data entry and admin work. They said they can't find work, cos the companies all don't want to hire fresh graduates. My friends who are still in the industry say that's because for the same pay, they can hire FTs with abt 3-5 years experience.

Maybe you should ask those 10 fresh uni grads why they never take the initiative to offer to take a lower pay to undergo on-the-job training doing the front-line operations work of their desired prospective employers? Why they rather go do data-entry and low level admin work in a stat board? How they expect to get relevant experience if they not willing to get their hands dirty or their shirts sweaty or scolded by unreasonable customers?

Sometimes is not that they are not willing to accept lower pay, but it is that hiring is 垄断 by the agencies (the HR people like to outsourse their job to agencies) , and the agencies probably have connection with overseas agencies , and may be they can make more by recommending foreigner.[/quote]That is why people are saying that the government is out of touch with the ground. We shouldn't be arguing theoretically if FTs create or take away jobs. You should go to the ground and really learn what happens. I am sure theory in their plan don't take into considerations such as human nature to employ their own kind, how about office politics and culture? If it becomes predominantly foreign, then locals (even good in skills or knowledge) may not fit into the culture anymore...and there are many more possible factors that may not be considered in the beautiful master plan theory that gov has in mind...then reality drift further and further away from theory.....