Foreign Workers
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DTJ:
I believe Singapore managers are very well regarded. I was speaking with a recruiter some time back, who surprised me by saying, that despite the more entrepreneurial climate in Taiwan, MNCs there tend to prefer Singapore mid-senior managers due to their abilities. Easier to place and they get higher salaries too. Another recruiter I spoke to mentioned keen competition here for talent as companies continue to set up regional HQs. If they could hire locally, they would FAR prefer to do so, and HAVE done so, very successfully.
Good to know you encountered the opposite. It speaks well of our \"Singapore talent\" and I'm glad ... so at least there is hope, however tiny3Boys:
DTJ, you make a fair observation, but I suspect it is one part of the story only. Singapore managers are not cheap anymore, at the mid-senior level. I know of several cases where Westerners with similar or more experience were brought in at LOWER salaries than what was offered/earned to/by a Singaporean.
Sometimes it may seem like our overseas compadres have a lot to spend, quite a bit of it is illusory honestly.
But seriously, in the banking industry......... (I decided not to say more)
Despite what it may seem, I have a lot of regard for our fellow countryman workers. They still have that edge. But I honestly fear that it is being lost in all this self-pity, the fighting spirit seems to be evaporating.
That's why I sometimes write harshly, if there is one thing that irks me, its all the whining, drives me up the wall.
Lift your eyes off the ground folk, all it needs is an attitude adjustment, and we will be fine. -
DTJ:
I've seen FTs who are worth every bit of what they are paid for, and also those who are not....
As to why such banks choose FT over local (since both supposedly have same skillset for mid-management role & locals are cheaper), I would like to leave this discussion out (confidentiality & sensitivities' issues).
...
Just my opinion only.
What I cannot understand is people who insist on keeping the bad ones and happily let the good ones leave.
In some cases, I find that \"sensitivities & confidentiality\" = stupidity.
It doesn't look good in the long run. -
limlim:
I think it really depends on the company. I'm sure there are companies who do this. This may be the SMEs who are the most pressured by labour costs. Rising labour costs is a reality all over the world in particular developed countries. This is why MNCs keep relocating manufacturing functions from developing country to an even cheaper developing country. Where we cannot compete on labour cost, we have to make up for it by upgrading to higher end skills/jobs - move to higher end manufacturing. That is why engineering education is also being revolutionised - emphasis on design and more inter-disciplinary.
I have no comments on the banking sector, but I'll like to share about the engineering/manufacturing sector.verykiasu2010:
about banking industry
i know of a transaction
it is easy for us to criticise the foreign PMET, but we are far behind in terms of ability and agility in executing a transaction
Most of the time, the so-called foreign \"talent\" has no real talent nor skills at all.. The only reason they're here is bcoz they're CHEAPer than locals. Some took up engineering positions but doesn't know how to use excel, or understand simple programs, have poor understanding ability and troubleshooting skills.. The company is probably hoping that local engineers can train them up so that these cheap labors can take up higher level job but at much lower pay.
The term FT have been grossly abused..
These are just cheap labor, no way near being foreign \"talent\". And totally no value added to local economy other than lowering the cost of running business at the expense of local workers.
A well established company understands the need not to compromise their business quality by hiring less than able foreigners simply because they are cheaper. Let's just say that spouse company is not small - one of the biggest foreign investor in Singapore. But the difficulty they face in particular in filling engineering positions (BTW these are not blue collar positions) and skilled technician positions (though not managerial) is that Sporeans shun such jobs. I have personal friends in spouse company (degree holders) who lament about remote location of the plant and quit...Cases like this abound in spouse company. Nobody can fault you for making this personal choice but let's not turn around and slam the foreigner who is willing to come in to take on the job.
The situation in the service industry, restaurants etc is well known - filled with Pinoys, PRCs etc. Again because Sporeans lament about long working hours, standing on their feet all the time, being yelled at by customers etc. I know people who are unemployed and who rather live on hand outs from family, maintenance pay out from ex-spouse etc then to take on service jobs cos' 'lose face', hours too long not because they have no ability. (They show up in church asking for help but we then find that they are not willing to help themselves...)
My point is we cannot generalise and lament all the time that foreigners are taking away jobs. As what forummers have shared, the situation varies from industry to industry and even between companies in each industry.
I sympathise with those who genuinely try to help themselves but find themselves being squeezed out by foreigners but let's not assume that this is always the case. At least from my personal experience, there are many factors for this phenomenon which cannot be blamed on foreigners. -
Musings:
I think it really depends on the company. I'm sure there are companies who do this. This may be the SMEs who are the most pressured by labour costs. Rising labour costs is a reality all over the world in particular developed countries. This is why MNCs keep relocating manufacturing functions from developing country to an even cheaper developing country. Where we cannot compete on labour cost, we have to make up for it by upgrading to higher end skills/jobs - move to higher end manufacturing. That is why engineering education is also being revolutionised - emphasis on design and more inter-disciplinary.
I have no comments on the banking sector, but I'll like to share about the engineering/manufacturing sector.limlim:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]about banking industry
i know of a transaction
it is easy for us to criticise the foreign PMET, but we are far behind in terms of ability and agility in executing a transaction
Most of the time, the so-called foreign \"talent\" has no real talent nor skills at all.. The only reason they're here is bcoz they're CHEAPer than locals. Some took up engineering positions but doesn't know how to use excel, or understand simple programs, have poor understanding ability and troubleshooting skills.. The company is probably hoping that local engineers can train them up so that these cheap labors can take up higher level job but at much lower pay.
The term FT have been grossly abused..
These are just cheap labor, no way near being foreign \"talent\". And totally no value added to local economy other than lowering the cost of running business at the expense of local workers.
A well established company understands the need not to compromise their business quality by hiring less than able foreigners simply because they are cheaper. Let's just say that spouse company is not small - one of the biggest foreign investor in Singapore. But the difficulty they face in particular in filling engineering positions (BTW these are not blue collar positions) and skilled technician positions (though not managerial) is that Sporeans shun such jobs. I have personal friends in spouse company (degree holders) who lament about remote location of the plant and quit...Cases like this abound in spouse company. Nobody can fault you for making this personal choice but let's not turn around and slam the foreigner who is willing to come in to take on the job.
The situation in the service industry, restaurants etc is well known - filled with Pinoys, PRCs etc. Again because Sporeans lament about long working hours, standing on their feet all the time, being yelled at by customers etc. I know people who are unemployed and who rather live on hand outs from family, maintenance pay out from ex-spouse etc then to take on service jobs cos' 'lose face', hours too long not because they have no ability. (They show up in church asking for help but we then find that they are not willing to help themselves...)
My point is we cannot generalise and lament all the time that foreigners are taking away jobs. As what forummers have shared, the situation varies from industry to industry and even between companies in each industry.
I sympathise with those who genuinely try to help themselves but find themselves being squeezed out by foreigners but let's not assume that this is always the case. At least from my personal experience, there are many factors for this phenomenon which cannot be blamed on foreigners.[/quote] :goodpost: -
Musings:
:goodpost:
I think it really depends on the company. I'm sure there are companies who do this. This may be the SMEs who are the most pressured by labour costs. Rising labour costs is a reality all over the world in particular developed countries. This is why MNCs keep relocating manufacturing functions from developing country to an even cheaper developing country. Where we cannot compete on labour cost, we have to make up for it by upgrading to higher end skills/jobs - move to higher end manufacturing. That is why engineering education is also being revolutionised - emphasis on design and more inter-disciplinary.
A well established company understands the need not to compromise their business quality by hiring less than able foreigners simply because they are cheaper. Let's just say that spouse company is not small - one of the biggest foreign investor in Singapore. But the difficulty they face in particular in filling engineering positions (BTW these are not blue collar positions) and skilled technician positions (though not managerial) is that Sporeans shun such jobs. I have personal friends in spouse company (degree holders) who lament about remote location of the plant and quit...Cases like this abound in spouse company. Nobody can fault you for making this personal choice but let's not turn around and slam the foreigner who is willing to come in to take on the job.
The situation in the service industry, restaurants etc is well known - filled with Pinoys, PRCs etc. Again because Sporeans lament about long working hours, standing on their feet all the time, being yelled at by customers etc. I know people who are unemployed and who rather live on hand outs from family, maintenance pay out from ex-spouse etc then to take on service jobs cos' 'lose face', hours too long not because they have no ability. (They show up in church asking for help but we then find that they are not willing to help themselves...)
My point is we cannot generalise and lament all the time that foreigners are taking away jobs. As what forummers have shared, the situation varies from industry to industry and even between companies in each industry.
I sympathise with those who genuinely try to help themselves but find themselves being squeezed out by foreigners but let's not assume that this is always the case. At least from my personal experience, there are many factors for this phenomenon which cannot be blamed on foreigners.
I agree. Singapore employees have to bear some responsibility for this so called 'hiring of foreigners trend'. Though I will say that it has been blown out of proportion.
Jialat gonna get hantam for saying that.
It may be cheaper to employ work permit staff but for S pass and above, it is not cheaper, in fact, it may cost more then hiring a local. But in a lot of cases, locals refuse to take up the job for various reasons. I for one would prefer to hire locals but in the end had no choice but to turn to hiring S pass staff due to lack of locals willing to take on the role.
Put it this way, I would rather use the money that I am paying for levy and insurance to incentivise my staff. And for S pass staff, I am not guaranteed that their passes will be renewed after 2 years due to ever changing criterias. And like what others have mentioned, there are good ones and there are horrible staff. If I were to be unlucky to have an S pass staff disappearing on me, the headache that it will cause, not only to replace the manpower but the possible legal implications are tedious. So why if most employers can find reliable local staff, would they subject themselves to such inconveniences and uncertainties.
We are constantly hiring, whenever we place an ad in the papers for recruitment, we get 10 calls from foreigners and only maybe 1 call from locals. We will be like waahhhh jackpot, at least one local responded. But the frustrating thing is, that local will not turn up for the scheduled interview. Worse still, they turn up, we decide to hire them, they sign the employment letter, but on the day that they are suppose to start work, they don't turn up and are uncontactable. This is what I, my suppliers, my business partners and even friends who run their own businesses are experiencing.
Ok, wrote too much oredi. Gonna kenna
.
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for some jobs that Singaporean & Malaysian shy away, there is no choice but to turn to foreign workers to supplement the shortfall.
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markfch:
CFO or Finance VP.... since the FC - Financial Controller got promoted to Finance Director.....
You are a brave man, vk2010; to say things that others don't like to hear.verykiasu2010:
my real life experience : got a SG citizen for the post of FC - he was very scheming, late for work, make false claims on expenses etc etc.....fed up - got a PR in at half the price, very hard working & trust worthy - he got promoted to my position after my promotion
So now you're promoted to CFO, COO, CIO or CEO? -
KSP:
CFO or Finance VP.... since the FC - Financial Controller got promoted to Finance Director.....[/quote]the highest position starts with letter 'R', get it ?
You are a brave man, vk2010; to say things that others don't like to hear.markfch:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
my real life experience : got a SG citizen for the post of FC - he was very scheming, late for work, make false claims on expenses etc etc.....fed up - got a PR in at half the price, very hard working & trust worthy - he got promoted to my position after my promotion
So now you're promoted to CFO, COO, CIO or CEO? -
Musings:
You're talking about plants in isolated locations, very specific cases. In those instance, I do not totally disagree with companies employing foreigners because they cannot get locals. But still, they can always up the salary to make up for the inconveniences. If an employee staying in pasir ris got the same offer, one at tuas the other at tampines, of coz they'll choose the tampines one given the same pay. But if the tuas plant is playing 20% more, it could meant a different story.
A well established company understands the need not to compromise their business quality by hiring less than able foreigners simply because they are cheaper. Let's just say that spouse company is not small - one of the biggest foreign investor in Singapore. But the difficulty they face in particular in filling engineering positions (BTW these are not blue collar positions) and skilled technician positions (though not managerial) is that Sporeans shun such jobs. I have personal friends in spouse company (degree holders) who lament about remote location of the plant and quit...Cases like this abound in spouse company. Nobody can fault you for making this personal choice but let's not turn around and slam the foreigner who is willing to come in to take on the job.
The case I'm referring to is factories in town area.. There'll be no lack of local applicants. Still, company likes foreigners bcoz they are cheaper.
In any cases, it just boils down to costs.
If the plants refuse to employee locals, they should simply just move to other countries, since it is no lost to locals anyway for they are not giving jobs here. The fact that they remains here means that there most be something that attracts them here, such as security or obedient workers.. And, it is fair that they pay a premium for the \"benefits\" that they derive from this little red dot. -
tankee:
for some jobs that Singaporean & Malaysian shy away, there is no choice but to turn to foreign workers to supplement the shortfall.
Actually, I support having FW for these areas, bcoz essentially locals doesn't want to do it.
But I'm against flooding the little island with cheap half-bucket foreigners for PMETs positions.. taking away jobs and suppressing wages for work that locals WANTED to do.
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