Foreign Workers
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verykiasu2010:
sounds really good leh.. your company still recruiting or not?
S$5k to $8k x min 15months, new grad start with $3k+ but there is zero suitability and need to send them for training .... B Eng need to go for training and learn some high tech (S$2m) machine is too lowly for our proud NUS / NTU engrg grad, because must learn from senior tech who is non-grad
Any links? offshore rig I also go.. -
verykiasu2010:
Yes yes.. thats why I was never against the foreign labor policy for \"worker\" level, like operators etc.. which attribute to \"direct cost\"..
stay status quo as in 10 years ago ? singapore will be devoid of any manufacturing biz by now, financial services will have no biz to service as the MNCs move out...the EDB people call it \"hollowing out\" of the SG economy - I was in their meetings...it was crisis mode because people like Dell, Sony, Seagate etc etc are telling our people -- match our cost target or say good buy. You wonder why your notebook pc / plasma TV is so cheap compared with 10 years ago ?
we live in a global economy, we are price taker, period
But for Engineer/technicians/supervisors etc which are indirect costs, it isn't going to be much different right.. -
Daddy
for a short while SG was meeting their cost target but not for long....last time a rear projection tv cost more than $10k, now a plasma is only $2k or less...even Foxconn is moving away from Shenzhen, Canon is moving into Vietnam...
So is SG meeting their cost target?verykiasu2010:
stay status quo as in 10 years ago ? singapore will be devoid of any manufacturing biz by now, financial services will have no biz to service as the MNCs move out...the EDB people call it \"hollowing out\" of the SG economy - I was in their meetings...it was crisis mode because people like Dell, Sony, Seagate etc etc are telling our people -- match our cost target or say good buy. You wonder why your notebook pc / plasma TV is so cheap compared with 10 years ago ?
we live in a global economy, we are price taker, period
Maybe we tried... So some of these COs r still in SG
Maybe we tried n fail... Cos' some of these COs r goodbye... Or going to say goodbye...
If we cannot match China's production cost... The next best thing is the bring their labour cost into SG? Seems like the case.
For other fields... Why we don't see that many FTs from other 1st world country? Your guess is as good as mine. $$$$$$
:?
it is over generalisation to say that we bring China cost into singapore. by and large the main bulk of foreign workers are found in areas that singaporeans shun....enuf said
many of these mnc retain SG as regional HQ...and some of the Singaporeans working in the SG offices have to report to bosses in China .... so difficult for them to accept due to perceived loss of face....singaporeanbig boss reporting prc regional boss who are prc citizen..... -
limlim:
I re-tired liao lah !
sounds really good leh.. your company still recruiting or not?verykiasu2010:
S$5k to $8k x min 15months, new grad start with $3k+ but there is zero suitability and need to send them for training .... B Eng need to go for training and learn some high tech (S$2m) machine is too lowly for our proud NUS / NTU engrg grad, because must learn from senior tech who is non-grad
Any links? offshore rig I also go.. -
verykiasu2010:
I re-tired liao lah ![/quote]vks2010....I thought you have always been travelling for business? (remember the red moon?) :?
sounds really good leh.. your company still recruiting or not?limlim:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
S$5k to $8k x min 15months, new grad start with $3k+ but there is zero suitability and need to send them for training .... B Eng need to go for training and learn some high tech (S$2m) machine is too lowly for our proud NUS / NTU engrg grad, because must learn from senior tech who is non-grad
Any links? offshore rig I also go.. -
ksi:
I am still travelling for business, I am also re-tired, my children are my bosses
vks2010....I thought you have always been travelling for business? (remember the red moon?) :? -
verykiasu2010:
like I said earlier, this is not a managerial post, non-grad requirement[/quote]The questions to ask here are:
Too little details to make a fair judgement. Are you looking for $6k/mth grade employees but only willing to pay $4k/mth that's why all those who is willing to accept $4k/mth got rejected?limlim:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
many this kind of examples lah
- what are the years of experience required?
- even non-grad, at least a diploma in accounting, right?
- what is the market rate for people of the same credentials based on the above? Are they getting more than $4k or less than $4k?
If they are getting more than $4k, then clearly no takers from locals and therefore 1 local vs 10 foreigners in the job application. In this case, it's the HR that has failed.
Just suggesting this as a possibility. Don't
me.
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limlim:
Could it be that it was a downturn and there were many like you at that time looking for a job?ok.. a little of my personal experience..
I went thru a retrenchment exercise before, and was jobless for a few months. I sent out resumes to companies in woodlands, Jurong etc.. Based on the requirements stated in the Ad, I should be qualified enough for the positions which I applied.
I stated that I can do shift work and travel at short notice.
Out of these 2 applications, none invited me for an interview. What does this means?
Apparently, the companies have no lack of applications right? If so, then why I always hear companies complaining that they cannot get local workers? doesn't makes sense right?
And, I did NOT put down expected salary in the resume, so this is definite not a factor. -
DTJ:
Actually what you have described is also what I am seeing at my side. In our case, the company prefers to hire its own nationality... sometimes due to pressure from HO, sometimes people there want to come to Asia (housing here cheaper, got maids, lower taxes...), sometimes offices elsewhere got no jobs or cutting jobs (economy not doing as well as Asia) so have to relocate, etc. Some of these junior to mid-level staff are willing to come on local terms, and if that's the case, they usually have an edge due to their language, familiarity with own countrymen, etc. Many of them learn on the job, so I truly believe the company could have easily found locals to do the job. Unlike some other industries, the local vs foreign requirement in banking is probably quite lax, so it's never difficult to hire a foreigner instead of a local.
I think this applies only to certain industries (say manufacturing?) so yes there might be some truth that not all MNCs wanna hire FT based on reasons given above. I also agree with continual upgrade of skillsets to stay relevant.Musings:
Actually as spouse works in American MNC, it is not true that American MNC will want to hire Americans. They would rather hire Singaporeans because they have to pay less in perks and expat benfits. Only when they cannot find equivalent local expertise, they will bring in someone from overseas.
Even for PMET positions, there are different classes of Employment Pass holders. In particular for the highest class of EP holders P1 class earning >$8k, companies will not want to bring in foreigners under EP if there is equivalent or better Singapore expertise to perform the job because they have to pay perks to foreigners who come in at that level. But often, these are the managerial positions where the foreigners have the expertise to contribute which is lacking amongst Singaporeans.
I would think the squeeze is felt more at the level of the lower end jobs, S Pass holders and Q1 EP holders. But these lower end jobs at least in spouse company involves working in plants and operating machinery in remote part of Spore including on weekends, so very few Singaporeans are keen on it.
Therefore, Singaporeans have to realise that it is either they be less choosy or they have to upgrade their skills so that they have the expertise to take on higher end jobs where foreigners cannot replace them so easily.
This is the reality of gobalisation and instead of keeping the competition away or embark on protectionist measures to only keep the jobs for Singaporeans which is not realistic, we have to find ways to stay ahead of the curve.
However, the climate can be very different in other industries. Just solely in the spirit of discussion only ( i hope i won't get slammed by talking too much), I would like to share what i went through in the banking sector....
A few of my colleagues are seeing more & more FTs coming in doing roles that were once filled by locals. In the past, these FTs only fill the very senior roles (say CEO, CFO, COO and Head of Departments) that are harder to fill by locals due to lack of expertise in the locals - then, this arrangement sat well with many, if not all, since we all acknowledged that we did not have the ready skillset in the available labour market to manage a huge team within the bank. So, all was fine & good then.
However, these days, foreign talents come in to do \"mid-management\" roles (eg sometimes just a small team lead role) which were previously held by locals. Where there is natural attrition (ie when a local staff resigns), we see a foreigner steps in to fill that role - and supply of such \"FT\" is in abundance now compared to before (cos i'm sure we all know what is happening in US/Eur mkts now) ... And their salary is not low... afterall they were once earning sterling pounds ... who would take a drastic paycut to come Singapore? Hence the \"attraction\" must be there for them - definitely the attraction is not about being \"clean & green singapore\" but the more pragmatic & practical approach - ie $$$
Sometimes, you don't need a job attrition or any concrete reason to bring in an FT... there can be other ways to bring them in ... It is fine if these FTs work really hard ( to be fair, some do) but sometimes what rubs salt into the wound is the fact that some or many of them keep harping on how \"everything is so cheap in Singapore\" while most of us are clearly struggling to stay afloat amidst rising costs! Not forgetting their almost-nightly drinks at bars ..... i think locals (same level as them.. not neccessarily same salary scale) can only afford daily kopi-O...
So the climate is indeed very different. I would like to reiterate that i have nothing against them, seriously ... some are nice people who are here to earn decent money... I just thought I could share some insight on \"evolution & change\" within the banking industry for the purpose of this discussion & how such evolution might have cause displeasure amongst the local workforce.
See, for each FT that comes in , a \"mid-management\" role (some r rather junior roles) remains shut & locals are kept out of the race. I believe this is what caused the unhappiness and could well be the one of the reasons why the local workforce became a \"disgruntled lot\". As to why such banks choose FT over local (since both supposedly have same skillset for mid-management role & locals are cheaper), I would like to leave this discussion out (confidentiality & sensitivities' issues).
As disgruntled as they can be, Singaporeans are usually \"shy & careful\" hence they would rather put up with this (for fear of getting \"marked\" or worse, for fear of losing their ricebowl or for whatever reasons) than to openly challenge why are FTs needed for less senior manager roles.
The typical \"safe mindset\" is \"so long as we still have a job, we better shut up & work along\". Afterall, we are fully aware that we are in a foreign firm (so what if we are in Singapore) and we all have families to feed! This \"bottling up of frustrations\" builds up resentment over time...
I am not sure if there are other industries experiencing the same issues but after what was discussed in the recent GE, I am quite certain the issues aren't limited to the \"blue collar\" .... Most \"blue collar\" (not all of course) are pretty \"easily contented\" and less vocal than we thought... I know of some cleaners who are very happy about those Singapore shares or dividends handed out. They are happy with the way things are coz some acknowledged that \"they can't ask for the sky since they have no education\" even tho they are clearly struggling.
In my opinion, I think the real squeeze could well be within the \"educated mid-to- slightly senior managers\" (in specific industries) - these are the ones who are the most affected & hence most \"disgruntled\" and we hear them during the recent GE coz they are more vocal (than your usual blue-collars) and they know what is going on... but have no avenue to voice out.. hence they used the recent GE to do so.
Just my opinion only.
My own experience years ago at my previous workplace seemed to imply so (though I have heard that these days, it's getting more difficult to get an employment pass). It was the 3rd time we had to look for a junior (first one was a Singaporean, graduated overseas and had worked several years - but almost couldn't pass probation after 6 months, while second one lasted for 2 years but decided to pursue other interests). At that time, we interviewed quite a number of candidates, all were locals except for one. Still, the only non local candidate was the one we eventually decided to hire, because she gave us the best vibes. HR did not even query. We just had absolute freedom to hire. Of course, if we have had a higher budget, we could have attracted better calibre candidates and the choice in the end would have been quite different. -
verykiasu2010:
yr DS is in sec 1, and u aledi retired ??
I re-tired liao lah !
either u are very loaded dun nid cho kang, or your production factory in overdrive.
btw, yr son involved in the current sec1 interclass soccer tournament ?
:offtopic:
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